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<blockquote data-quote="Elethiomel" data-source="post: 3819661" data-attributes="member: 49897">Again we get back to what I initially stated was the flaw in your reasoning. The action &quot;Attack (melee)&quot; and the concept &quot;melee attack&quot; are separate. They are not the same thing. They are different. &quot;Attack (melee)&quot; grants a &quot;melee attack&quot;. So do many other actions. That does not mean other actions grant &quot;Attack (melee)&quot; actions.Because &quot;Attack (melee)&quot; is an action that grants a melee attack. So is initiating the &quot;Bonecrusher&quot; strike from the Tome of Battle. So is casting the &quot;Shocking Grasp&quot; spell.All these things grant melee attacks. That does not mean that every time you take a melee attack, you are taking the Attack (melee) action, casting Shocking Grasp and initiating the Bonecrusher maneuver. The relationship is one-way.Sunder, however, is different. Under the Sunder description it tells you what you do when you take the Sunder action. The Sunder action is a standard action according to table 8-2.Take Disarm as a counterexample. Under the description for Disarm it tells you what you do when you take the Disarm action. The Disarm action is a &quot;Action type: Varies&quot; action that can (because Disarm carries footnote 7) be taken in place of any melee attack - even an AoO.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elethiomel, post: 3819661, member: 49897"] Again we get back to what I initially stated was the flaw in your reasoning. The action "Attack (melee)" and the concept "melee attack" are separate. They are not the same thing. They are different. "Attack (melee)" grants a "melee attack". So do many other actions. That does not mean other actions grant "Attack (melee)" actions. Because "Attack (melee)" is an action that grants a melee attack. So is initiating the "Bonecrusher" strike from the Tome of Battle. So is casting the "Shocking Grasp" spell. All these things grant melee attacks. That does not mean that every time you take a melee attack, you are taking the Attack (melee) action, casting Shocking Grasp [b]and[/b] initiating the Bonecrusher maneuver. The relationship is one-way. Sunder, however, is different. Under the Sunder description it tells you what you do when you take the Sunder action. The Sunder action is a standard action according to table 8-2. Take Disarm as a counterexample. Under the description for Disarm it tells you what you do when you take the Disarm action. The Disarm action is a "Action type: Varies" action that can (because Disarm carries footnote 7) be taken in place of any melee attack - even an AoO. [/QUOTE]

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