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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 7245947" data-attributes="member: 5889">I think one of the disagreements we are having is the following:Mechanically Forgiven Choices vs Mechanically Re-Enforced ChoicesAgain we will use the Fighter vs Paladin as an example. Many have argued that there is nothing stopping a fighter from putting some points in Charisma and picking up Persuasion without seriously compromising his fighting prowess. This is the notion of Mechanically Forgiven Choices. The fighter can make what at first glance is a non-optimal choice, but he "gets away with it" because the rules are forgiving enough or the base class is strong enough.Some in this thread though are arguing the need for mechanical reinforcement. In other words, don't just allow my option, but actually encourage it.So in looking at the paladin, a high charisma gives them strong spells and very nice saves (that they can share with the party). If a player brought in a paladin with maximized charisma but sacrificed some strength and/or con....well he is still optimized in his own way. The party will appreciate his strong social skills as well as his incredible defensive benefits (that again they get to share in too).In this arena, the fighter doesn't offer much innately. There are some feats to encourage this (like the inspiring leader feat as one example).So I think this is where a lot of debate is occurring. Some players say "as long I can do X with my character but still look pretty good in my main job, that is enough", while others say "if a class doesn't give you a benefit for doing X than that class cannot be considered good at X...its just pulling away from optimized play".I personally fall a bit in the middle. I personally think the fighter (especially the BM) is a fine class. That said...I do think it was a really missed opportunity not to allow certain maneuvers to utilize int, wis or cha...to give just a bit of mechanical perk to those fighters who want to play a more "mental" style.</blockquote>

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