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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9193494" data-attributes="member: 7030563">First every fighter gets a boost at 11 and 20 with the additional attacks they get.&nbsp; Second, Gloomstalker does not get a damage boost at level 3.&nbsp; They get some nifty features, including Dread Ambusher that is very powerful&nbsp; but situational at low and mid levels. But that is not a damage boost and once you hit the levels we are talking about it is largely redundant with Nature's Veil even when it is situationally useful.I will also point out that we are talking about high level.&nbsp; Cavalier gets a ton of offense at high level due to his bonus action attacks, buffed attack and extra AOOs (maybe that is what you mean by defender stuff?) but he is doing more damage.Champions get more damage from the extra figthing style they get and superior critical, which comes on at level 15.&nbsp; When you are considering reduced crit range, also realize that a crit always hits regardless of AC, so a high level champion hits everything on a natural 18 or higher AND does double damage dice regardless of AC.&nbsp; That is a substantial boost, and with a good weapon on an optimized ranger it is more of a boost than most Rangers are getting from their subclass features at level 15.IF you are saying fighter subclasses are not all equal you are right.&nbsp; You can choose a good fighter subclass and weak fighter subclasses.&nbsp; The same thing is true about spells though.&nbsp; If I pick a caster and choose to prepare/know weak spells at every level, I will have a weak wizard, certainly weaker than the strongest fighter is at that level.Purposely choose weak spells and you have a weak Wizard.&nbsp; Purposely choose weak fighter subclasses and you have a weak fighter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9193494, member: 7030563"] First every fighter gets a boost at 11 and 20 with the additional attacks they get. Second, Gloomstalker does not get a damage boost at level 3. They get some nifty features, including Dread Ambusher that is very powerful but situational at low and mid levels. But that is not a damage boost and once you hit the levels we are talking about it is largely redundant with Nature's Veil even when it is situationally useful. I will also point out that we are talking about high level. Cavalier gets a ton of offense at high level due to his bonus action attacks, buffed attack and extra AOOs (maybe that is what you mean by defender stuff?) but he is doing more damage. Champions get more damage from the extra figthing style they get and superior critical, which comes on at level 15. When you are considering reduced crit range, also realize that a crit always hits regardless of AC, so a high level champion hits everything on a natural 18 or higher AND does double damage dice regardless of AC. That is a substantial boost, and with a good weapon on an optimized ranger it is more of a boost than most Rangers are getting from their subclass features at level 15. IF you are saying fighter subclasses are not all equal you are right. You can choose a good fighter subclass and weak fighter subclasses. The same thing is true about spells though. If I pick a caster and choose to prepare/know weak spells at every level, I will have a weak wizard, certainly weaker than the strongest fighter is at that level. Purposely choose weak spells and you have a weak Wizard. Purposely choose weak fighter subclasses and you have a weak fighter. [/QUOTE]

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