Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9201434" data-attributes="member: 7030563">No if we are talking levels 3-10 most of the subclasses are worse at most of those levels (and to be clear there is no champion below level 3 where Barbarians are significantly better).   The good Barbarian subclasses still compete through level 6 or 7, but then the gap widens quite a bit because of fighting style, better AC and the extra feat and it continues to widen through high levels.This of course assumes you are optimizing, but if you are not optimizing, why are you complaining that you are weak?At very high level it is a great martial class (assuming a good subclass) at levels 5-10 it is the worst class overall by quite a bit, even with a good subclass.But the point is the player playing the Rogue should be seeing the same thing the "newbie" player playing the Champion.The Ranger is more of a Gish than a Warrior.  With 5E mechanics, I think the Rogue as a class is more of a warrior than the Ranger is in general, although different builds play different ways.  A warrior Ranger is a viable play style and build, but if you are optimizing your Ranger using 5E mechanics and Tashas it is going to be more of a Gish than a straight Warrior and if you build a pure martial Ranger who is not casting spells in combat, an optimized Champion is generally going to outrun most of them in combat at the levels I noted.Reegardless your statement was Champions are "hilariously weak" which would mean they are weaker than most others.  The classes and subclasses stronger to them are not relevant to that discussion.Champions are as a point of fact middle of the road in martial combat.  Put in all the "warriors", meaning all the Fighters, all the Paladins, all the Barbarians, all the Rogues, all the Monks and if you want all the Rangers.  Then assume optimization and rank them top to bottom at any level between 3 and 10.  Champion is going to be above average on that list.This may be the case for you, but it is not universal, as others pointed out on this thread.</blockquote>

Verification