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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7438058" data-attributes="member: 42582">Tony, your slightly contrarian posting style has left me a bit confused on this occasion. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing.I was talking about a play group focusing on DPR in their play of the game. Given how many tools the game gives them to play with in that particular arena; and given the long tradition of playing D&amp;D as a wargame; I don't see how theycan be faulted for that.Whereas you seem to be arguing that a designer focus on DPR leads to weak/ineffective classes (I am guessing you see the Champion and perhaps the Battlemaster as suffering from this). That may be true, but seems not to really bear on what I was saying.To an extent this seems to be agreeing with me.But part of my point was that 5e has build elements - Ideals, Bonds, Flaws - that could be in those stat blocks (alignment is there, after all) but are not. Why not? And given that they're not, I again ask how a play group can be faulted for similarly prioritising DPR in their engagment with the game.Of course. But I'm taking it as a given that we're talking about 5e, which has already made some design choices that deliberately echo AD&amp;D (no level scaling damage for weapon attacks; no minions; etc).It's being designed neither for experienced players nor for new players? Than who? Edition warriors and PF players? But aren't many of them in the &quot;experienced&quot; camp. (Presumably the OP was a 3E/PF player before 5e. I know he doesn't like 4e.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7438058, member: 42582"] Tony, your slightly contrarian posting style has left me a bit confused on this occasion. I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing. I was talking about a play group focusing on DPR in their play of the game. Given how many tools the game gives them to play with in that particular arena; and given the long tradition of playing D&D as a wargame; I don't see how theycan be faulted for that. Whereas you seem to be arguing that a designer focus on DPR leads to weak/ineffective classes (I am guessing you see the Champion and perhaps the Battlemaster as suffering from this). That may be true, but seems not to really bear on what I was saying. To an extent this seems to be agreeing with me. But part of my point was that 5e has build elements - Ideals, Bonds, Flaws - that [I]could[/i] be in those stat blocks (alignment is there, after all) but are not. Why not? And given that they're not, I again ask how a play group can be faulted for similarly prioritising DPR in their engagment with the game. Of course. But I'm taking it as a given that we're talking about 5e, which has already made some design choices that deliberately echo AD&D (no level scaling damage for weapon attacks; no minions; etc). It's being designed neither for experienced players nor for new players? Than who? Edition warriors and PF players? But aren't many of them in the "experienced" camp. (Presumably the OP was a 3E/PF player before 5e. I know he doesn't like 4e.) [/QUOTE]

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