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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7445114" data-attributes="member: 177">Um, note that this is not factually correct.&nbsp; Rock-Paper-Scissors is a perfectly balanced game.&nbsp; It does happen to be exceedingly dull, such that we don't play it as a game, but use it as a randomization method, but the point is still made.Tic-Tac-Toe is a playable game, and perfectly balanced.&nbsp; It is also a solved game, such that no matter who starts, the game can *always* be forced into a draw.The card game of poker is perfectly balanced - the odds are the same for everyone.&nbsp; Now, two of&nbsp; these games are exceedingly simple - but that is what allows us to *know* they are perfectly balanced.&nbsp; When a game reaches sufficient complexity, it becomes difficult or impossible to know whether it is perfectly balanced.&nbsp; Chess is an example here - nobody has proven, in a mathematical sense, that there's a first-move advantage.&nbsp; It is only seen empirically, and the effect is not large.&nbsp; My competition-chess friends note to me that there's some argument as to whether the advantage is technical, or merely psychological.&nbsp; We can't *know* for sure, because the game has too many possible plays to analyze fully.This is not to say that any edition of D&amp;D has ever been secretly perfectly balanced, and we didn't know it because ti si too complicated.&nbsp; I just don't think this discussion has a need for false absolutes.It may help for me to pitch the idea that there may be an RPG that *is* perfectly balanced, in terms of all PCs being of equivalent power - FATE Accelerated.If we do not consider it perfectly balanced, I think it reveals the ways in which no RPG really can be.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7445114, member: 177"] Um, note that this is not factually correct. Rock-Paper-Scissors is a perfectly balanced game. It does happen to be exceedingly dull, such that we don't play it as a game, but use it as a randomization method, but the point is still made. Tic-Tac-Toe is a playable game, and perfectly balanced. It is also a solved game, such that no matter who starts, the game can *always* be forced into a draw. The card game of poker is perfectly balanced - the odds are the same for everyone. Now, two of these games are exceedingly simple - but that is what allows us to *know* they are perfectly balanced. When a game reaches sufficient complexity, it becomes difficult or impossible to know whether it is perfectly balanced. Chess is an example here - nobody has proven, in a mathematical sense, that there's a first-move advantage. It is only seen empirically, and the effect is not large. My competition-chess friends note to me that there's some argument as to whether the advantage is technical, or merely psychological. We can't *know* for sure, because the game has too many possible plays to analyze fully. This is not to say that any edition of D&D has ever been secretly perfectly balanced, and we didn't know it because ti si too complicated. I just don't think this discussion has a need for false absolutes. It may help for me to pitch the idea that there may be an RPG that *is* perfectly balanced, in terms of all PCs being of equivalent power - FATE Accelerated. If we do not consider it perfectly balanced, I think it reveals the ways in which no RPG really can be. [/QUOTE]

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