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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 368775" data-attributes="member: 3146">I didn't use Ki Ryn's suggested limitation. If I had, it probably would have changed the picture but not too much--players would have just been careful with their triggers and actions (ensuring that the trigger they select will actually occur--for instance "as soon as Garogg opens the door. . ." or "As soon as the door opens."Well, I'd like to take credit for the idea but I really can't. It's pretty much Monte Cook's. (DMG p.63, paragraph 3). Whether or not people are flatfooted depends upon the conditions.Situation 1: The party hears orc guards on the other side of the door and quickly discusses the situation. Tordek takes the left side of the door and Krusk takes the right. Krusk is the designated door booter. Mialee casts shield and starts going over the beginnings of the magic missile spell in his mind. Jozan casts bless and pulls his shield off of his back. He spins his mace in his right hand as he waits. As Lidda loads her crossbow, she realizes that it's suddenly silent behind the door--the orcs must have heard them coming. "They're waiting for us.""Then they'll die standing up." Krusk steps into the doorway and, greataxe raised, shatters the bar with a single kick.Roll initiative.Situation 2:Redgar put all his strength into the swing but his sword nothing but air. The drow was too quick for him and vanished again leaving only the flicker of light as the magic concealed his form again. Once more, everything went quiet. Redgar could hear the pulsing of the blood in his ears like a sprinting giant's footfalls."Don't let him get away--cover the doorways." Alhandra seemed strangely calm as she bent over Eberk's fallen body and placed her hands over the dark contusions caused by the force of the warlock's magic. The blood leaking from the dwarf's wounds slowed to a trickle but he didn't come to.Nodding, Devis back into the hallway, rapier in hand, spreading his arms out to the sides to ensure that nobody slipped past him.Sovellis pushed the front gate closed behind him, looking regretfully at the shattered bar on the ground. Swords at the ready, he waited for any sign of movement, his ears straining to hear the sound of footsteps above the clanging of the alarm bells. Gnoll reinforcements would be coming soon, he knew it.Twelve seconds passed. As Alhandra poured the last drop of healing draught down the dwarf's throad, Eberk stirred. Coughing and wiping blood from between his teeth, he sputtered "Where's that Unseelie bastard? Me 'ammer's not done talkin' to 'im yet.""We don't know," said Alhandra, as she helped the dwarf to his feet. "He went invisible--we think he's here somewhere waiting for reinforcements. . . .""Still hidin' from me is he? Let's see what Moradin has to say about that," sputtered the dwarf as he cast invisibility purge.Roll initiative.In situation 1, I would rule that characters are flatfooted until their initiative comes up. Neither side has been in combat yet. Both sides were waiting for the door to open. What the initiative roll determines is whether "Javalins streak out from the darkness of the room as the door crashes open, piercing Krusk's body in several places" (which is to say, the orcs spotted their target first and reacted more quickly to the situation) or "As the door crashes open, the orcs inside pull back their arms to hurl javalins at the half orc but Mialee's magic missile and Lidda's trigger finger are quicker. Two javalins clatter to the ground as their would be throwers drop dead to the ground of a magic missile and a crossbow bolt." (in which case the party reacted more quickly to the new situation).In situation 2, I would probably rule that nobody is flatfooted. The combat never really stopped. The party healed Eberk and moved in the second round while their hidden antagonist drank another potion of healing. However, Eberk's invisibility purge dramatically altered the situation justifying new initiative rolls.Exactly. In truth, it's even better than that. Since drawing a weapon is usually a move equivalent action (unless you have quickdraw), you can only draw your weapon in a suprise round and can't attack at all. Which is why I think using the variant "Combat begins with a surprise round whether or not anybody is surprised" rule is a good one in cases like the negotiations.In the King Arthur example, the guy was right next to what he wanted to kill (a snake that was about to bite him). Unfortunately, the other side didn't see the snake; they just saw a guy with a sword drawn. And they knew that if they didn't act in that round, they wouldn't be able to do anything when he did charge and attack their leader in the next round so they attacked him immediately.</blockquote>

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