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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 4939208" data-attributes="member: 12731">I don't think heroic PCs are fragile at all.That doesn't mean I can't see your point - it's only that I think you should realize coming from higher levels warps your assumptions a fair bit. Yes, heroic characters have far fewer tricks up their sleeves than paragon characters, and yes, compared to paragon heroes, heroic PCs will seem frail.But that doesn't mean I think it's fair to classify them as frail - far from it. When you compare heroic PCs against newly started out characters of other fantasy games (including previous editions of D&D!) they come across as very stout and competent indeed, and this is a much more appropriate characterization, I believe.Take my first adventure, for example. I took the 3E module Vault of Larin Karr (from Necromancer Games) and converted and embellished it a bit.That meant that the four (4) player characters were tasked with evicting a complete fort manned by twenty thugs or so, and with a squad of professional Hobgoblin soldiers in the basement.My players, all experienced AD&D and/or 3E hands, freaked out! They spent the very first session just skulking around, scared almost shitless by the notion of having to fight three dozen enemies. "What were the DM (me) thinking! We're level 1. We're supposed to getting our asses handed to us by wild dogs and wererats!" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />But they persevered. And that was a great intro to 4E, and they really felt strong and successful after that, despite being 2nd level "only". <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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