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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 3768178" data-attributes="member: 40961">I do find it impressive that your first sentence and your second sentence contradict so directly.&nbsp; You begin by asserting a uniformity of playstyles, then immediately retreat to asserting merely a finite multitude of playstyles, while demanding infinite.&nbsp;I've always found that not knowing the rules of the gameworld reduces speed and strategy, while increasing metagaming.&nbsp; You can't quickly decide what to do because you don't immediately know your options.&nbsp; You can't strategize because you have no idea the chances your decisions will work.&nbsp; And you can't avoid metagaming because you're always asking the DM how good your character thinks his chances are of success.&nbsp; &quot;Does Starlight the Elven Rogue think she can climb a wall of this type without waking the sleeping guard?&quot; is metagame reasoning when you ask it of the DM.And you can't just declare, &quot;You can trust your character to be able to do what's reasonable.&quot;&nbsp; That would work just fine in a low fantasy levelless RPG.&nbsp; In D&amp;D, you have to account for class levels.&nbsp; And what's reasonable for an eighth level rogue?&nbsp; You can't exactly sit back and think about what real life eighth level rogues can accomplish.&nbsp; Its inherently a game construct.If that's the sort of game you're looking for, you might want to just give up on high fantasy.&nbsp; Find a game where the players all have Indiana Jones level abilities, that can be logically reasoned from first principles by the player.&nbsp; D&amp;D is not and has never been that game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 3768178, member: 40961"] I do find it impressive that your first sentence and your second sentence contradict so directly. You begin by asserting a uniformity of playstyles, then immediately retreat to asserting merely a finite multitude of playstyles, while demanding infinite. I've always found that not knowing the rules of the gameworld reduces speed and strategy, while increasing metagaming. You can't quickly decide what to do because you don't immediately know your options. You can't strategize because you have no idea the chances your decisions will work. And you can't avoid metagaming because you're always asking the DM how good your character thinks his chances are of success. "Does Starlight the Elven Rogue think she can climb a wall of this type without waking the sleeping guard?" is metagame reasoning when you ask it of the DM. And you can't just declare, "You can trust your character to be able to do what's reasonable." That would work just fine in a low fantasy levelless RPG. In D&D, you have to account for class levels. And what's reasonable for an eighth level rogue? You can't exactly sit back and think about what real life eighth level rogues can accomplish. Its inherently a game construct. If that's the sort of game you're looking for, you might want to just give up on high fantasy. Find a game where the players all have Indiana Jones level abilities, that can be logically reasoned from first principles by the player. D&D is not and has never been that game. [/QUOTE]

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