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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 3770400" data-attributes="member: 32536">You seem to be misinterpreting my point...I never once said that requiring the rules in essential to thinking in character. I think that knowing the rules and staying in character are completely independant variables. Someone can know all the rules and stay in character, another can know all the rules and will never stay in character, and others will not know the rules and still always break character.My point is that the condition of not knowing the rules is not fun, completely independant of whether or not there is roleplaying.Also, you seem to be trying to pass the blame for me not having fun on to the others players, not the DM, but I assure you, there is as much blame on the DM's shoulders as on anyone else in those situations.I suspect that you just happen to have a good group that likes a certain playstyle... The reason things work for you is because of the group, not because you hide the rules. You seem to think that the group is good because you hide the rules, but I don't imagine that is the case at all, and you have a mistaken impression of what is the cause and what is the effect.I am willing to bet that if your group did know all the rules, things would not change much for you.Let me use an example to illustrate my point... When I read Complete Arcane, the Warlock class jumped out at me as an interesting class to play. I had never played something like that before, so for the first time I ended up playing a chaotic neutral Changeling Warlock, something that I had never previously considered before, and not something I would have thought of independantly.As another example, I stumbled across the Expanded Psionic Handbook race called the Elan, and it inspired me to play a Psychic Warrior. However, because of some discussion on the WotC boards, a few odd power and feat choices, and some discussion with my DM, I created a very interesting and unique character who I never would have thought of on my own.Both characters were something I created on my own, and had a lot of fun with, even though I never would have thought of them in a group situation where I had no access to the rules. The ideas I would use if I were "using my creativity and playing my dreams" would probably be less original, and there is no guarantee that they would be any more fun. In fact, I don't think it is possible that my experience would have been more fun that way.In fact, a major problem with me creating things without knowing the rules is that my main sources of inspiration do not mesh with the rules of D&D very well. I would probably force my DM to invent something totally new just to keep up with my ideas. I mean, D&D probably can't handle a character inspired by the Breath of Fire videogames... And as a DM, I can't imagine being able to do so myself. An added problem with the ideal of everyone playing what they dream is the issue of genre and player expectations, which can get complicated when there are several players.To rephrase and elaborate a little...For players, knowing the rules gives them more direct control over their character and their character's fate. If the DM creates the character, than the player only has indirect control. I think having direct control is more fun, and helps the player more thoroughly define the character's quirks and abilities. It also helps eliminate the problem of the player and DM having different ideas about how powerful a particular ability would be, which is a major source of not fun.For DMs, having the players know the rules is a serious removal of burden. If the DM is the only one who knows the rules, all the difficulties of building and managing characters is his responsibility, and that burden is just added onto all the other responsibilities of the DM. Also, the DM is charged with playing designer and inventing a lot of rules which have to stay balanced when compared to the core rules. This is also an added burden.Regardless of how the game was originally created, it is not the way many people find it to be fun. I would never play in or run such a game.The reason that many people are dumbstruck is that you are advocating that people play a rules-heavy game in a no-rules style, which many find odd and inefficient. It also occurs because you are either trying to convince us that this is the one and only "good" playstyle, or that something is wrong with either us as gamers or the rules of D&D. At least, you are coming across as such.Regardless, I disagree that "uniformiy of rules leads to uniformity of playstyle", but I do think that uniformity of playstyle leads to uniformity of playstyle (obviously enough), and based on your own distaste for uniformity of playstyle, I wonder why you are arguing against styles other than your own so much...</blockquote>

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