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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5988385" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Essentially, this is a "nerf wizards" thread? If so, I can get on board, as long as we're willing to talk how to do that. (I admittedly skipped to the end after starting to read the post; it just didn't hold my attention span.)This is one way. Not my favorite method, but it's one way to do it. I prefer to give dedicated magic users access to basically what they need, but this comes at a price: specializing in this versatility costs them elsewhere (skills, combat prowess, hit points, etc.). More on implementation below, as I continue to reply.Disagree with access to all scrolls and rechargeable items, though I agree in essence with this line of thought. I cut down spell slots significantly in my RPG (no bonus from high attribute), higher level spell slots cost significantly more with character points than lower level spell slots (it's a point-buy system), getting a spell slot back takes a lot longer than overnight (a level 9 spell slot takes 32 days to get back [16 days with a special ability], and you can only get 1 spell slot back at a time), etc. Also, creating a magic item temporarily takes up "auras" (basically a limit to how many spells you can maintain at once, to limit buffs), and making them permanently costs you permanent attribute damage.So, I'm okay with limiting resources, just not completely. Let people get rechargeable items, but at a cost.Things like divination, teleportation, charms, illusions, etc. are all hard to handle (those four were the hardest in my RPG). Setting up limitations helps quite a bit (people explicitly remember being charmed, and charming someone moves them one step closer to friendly, not directly to "Friend"; illusions can be dispelled by attacking them, and it's hard to create huge scenes with them; etc.).This is where things get tricky. I want the system to allow teleportation, but I don't want it to be standard. Set up a huge recharge time, permanently drain an attribute on each use (my RPG's method), limit where it can go (4e), etc. Open-ended abilities like Teleport or certain divinations can really alter the game in such ways that you can't really avoid them (scry and fry tactics, etc.).I'm down for discussing how to limit these things; my preference is to make them either have a permanent cost (usually attribute drain*), or to make them less reliable than a mundane method. For example, you can use Revelation magic (basically divinations) in my RPG to ask questions, but you basically get what people think is the right answer; it's like a "poll the audience" spell. If you said "who is the assassin who just killed the king?" the majority of people wouldn't know (and thus the spell would ignore them), some people might have suspicions, and others would know (such as the assassin). You'd get the most common answer (excluding "I don't know" or the equivalent), though the less people know, the harder it is to find out the answer. A Rogue or Bard could potentially bypass these restrictions with some mundane methods: asking around, talking to the right people, dropping a few coins, etc.*When I say "attribute drain", I don't mean in the "and the Cleric will use Restoration to restore it" sense. More like "mark down your stat by 1; it's now lower, permanently."This isn't a bad method, either. I like the generalist wizard, but I see them as a "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" type of class. I can turn someone invisible, but it just lets them hide without cover or concealment (so the Rogue is still better than the Wizard); I can give someone a bonus to attacks, but it's limited by how good that person already is (so the Fighter benefits more than the Wizard); I can ask the universe a question, but it's not reliable, and we're better served by the Bard asking around unless we need a quick lead or we're short on time.Specialization is viable for a lot of other classes, though. Basically, give some magic users less spells, but they get more class abilities, less restrictions (they get better at combat, more skills, etc.), etc. I'm definitely okay with this type of class design for a lot of classes. I just like my generalist wizards, too. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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