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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6672609" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>Nothing you listed is other than DM tailoring. A group talking beforehand about what to make together does not change that the DM will tailor to that group after they have decided. You think because the DM has created the world prior where you can make choices of what direction to go in is other than DM tailoring. Those are what is known as story hooks. Once a hook is chosen, a story must be developed including the motivations of the enemies or do you intend to participate in developing the enemy's motivations and tactics as well so they are known to you in advance?</p><p></p><p>What you seem to be asking for is the DM to design a place with several different options to go in. Then somehow create a story on the fly for you to participate in with encounters and motivations for the enemies. Like a campaign world with a bunch of adventure hooks the DM fleshes out once the players choose to go to that area. You still expect the DM to produce an entire story...sorry that is what it is...that you participate in possibly on the fly. He will still have to produce an enemy for you to fight. That enemy will have to be interesting and challenging, otherwise it will take up zero time defeating it and is pointless to run, hand waving as you say encounters because rolling out a fight between high level PCs and a low level thieves guild isn't interesting. One guy making skill checks to prosecute them isn't that interesting either. </p><p></p><p>Yes, that style is a lot of work. It still requires GM tailoring to work at all. You seem to think if the Dm fleshes out areas after you have chosen to go to those areas, that makes any difference. If you choose to go to a particularly dangerous area like 1st level characters going to a lich's area, then the campaign doesn't last very long unless...duh, duh, duh... the DM tailors it to last such as making the lich decide not to kill the party.</p><p></p><p>Like I said, player choice is an illusion. Has been in every edition. </p><p></p><p>The encounter choices are only a problem if I don't give the players choices? You just stated yourself you want the option to go to dangerous areas. Now you want me to tell you exactly how dangerous they are? You want me to say this is a 1st level area with kobolds, you can go there. Don't go to this 5th level area with an orc warlord? How is that a meaningful choice? Even if you choose to go to the low level area, if I play the kobolds optimally, they can probably kill a 1st level party. Like most humanoids don't wait around six at a time to kill someone, right? When a party comes upon a small group of humanoids set up rather conveniently for a party to kill, that is DM tailoring. In your mind, you would rather I play the humanoids as individuals as competently as possible for them. Rush you en masse with the intention of killing as fast as possible. You would rather I do this with every encounter regardless of your level of health, how many fights you have had that day, or what not. Do you expect to survive if I run it this way? Or should I tailor it where you at least have a chance at victory? </p><p></p><p>The reality is that the only reason this game works is because a DM uses the available DM tools and his experience to tailor the game so you do live. Unless you're writing up the encounters, the story is very much a DM creation. Your part in that story is the random part generated by dice rolls and player choice of what to do with what the DM puts in front of you. When a DM generates a world with several different adventure hooks, that is just several story hooks the players have to choose from. Once the player chooses, it will still be the DM's creation they face including the story why that creation exists and what they are doing. It's all a DM illusion. If in your mind the illusion of choice requires several different story hooks the DM fleshes out as you go, so be it. Not how I play or ever will, but I've heard plenty ask for it because it makes them feel like their character is making more meaningful choices even when it isn't the case. It's what they refer to as a sandbox adventure. Multiple story/adventure hooks that gives the player an option to choose their direction. </p><p></p><p>I've run that type of campaign as well. It very much is still my story. Choosing a direction is not writing a story. Your story is your background and the PCs/NPCs you choose to interact with that I place in front of you. They will react off your choices as I the DM deem appropriate for their character. If I'm doing my job right, you will believe your character is real and that his choices matter. That has always been the job of the DM. D&D has always been cooperative story-telling. The DM tailors it to make that cooperative story-telling by doing as you stated earlier: learning what his players respond to.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6672609, member: 5834"] Nothing you listed is other than DM tailoring. A group talking beforehand about what to make together does not change that the DM will tailor to that group after they have decided. You think because the DM has created the world prior where you can make choices of what direction to go in is other than DM tailoring. Those are what is known as story hooks. Once a hook is chosen, a story must be developed including the motivations of the enemies or do you intend to participate in developing the enemy's motivations and tactics as well so they are known to you in advance? What you seem to be asking for is the DM to design a place with several different options to go in. Then somehow create a story on the fly for you to participate in with encounters and motivations for the enemies. Like a campaign world with a bunch of adventure hooks the DM fleshes out once the players choose to go to that area. You still expect the DM to produce an entire story...sorry that is what it is...that you participate in possibly on the fly. He will still have to produce an enemy for you to fight. That enemy will have to be interesting and challenging, otherwise it will take up zero time defeating it and is pointless to run, hand waving as you say encounters because rolling out a fight between high level PCs and a low level thieves guild isn't interesting. One guy making skill checks to prosecute them isn't that interesting either. Yes, that style is a lot of work. It still requires GM tailoring to work at all. You seem to think if the Dm fleshes out areas after you have chosen to go to those areas, that makes any difference. If you choose to go to a particularly dangerous area like 1st level characters going to a lich's area, then the campaign doesn't last very long unless...duh, duh, duh... the DM tailors it to last such as making the lich decide not to kill the party. Like I said, player choice is an illusion. Has been in every edition. The encounter choices are only a problem if I don't give the players choices? You just stated yourself you want the option to go to dangerous areas. Now you want me to tell you exactly how dangerous they are? You want me to say this is a 1st level area with kobolds, you can go there. Don't go to this 5th level area with an orc warlord? How is that a meaningful choice? Even if you choose to go to the low level area, if I play the kobolds optimally, they can probably kill a 1st level party. Like most humanoids don't wait around six at a time to kill someone, right? When a party comes upon a small group of humanoids set up rather conveniently for a party to kill, that is DM tailoring. In your mind, you would rather I play the humanoids as individuals as competently as possible for them. Rush you en masse with the intention of killing as fast as possible. You would rather I do this with every encounter regardless of your level of health, how many fights you have had that day, or what not. Do you expect to survive if I run it this way? Or should I tailor it where you at least have a chance at victory? The reality is that the only reason this game works is because a DM uses the available DM tools and his experience to tailor the game so you do live. Unless you're writing up the encounters, the story is very much a DM creation. Your part in that story is the random part generated by dice rolls and player choice of what to do with what the DM puts in front of you. When a DM generates a world with several different adventure hooks, that is just several story hooks the players have to choose from. Once the player chooses, it will still be the DM's creation they face including the story why that creation exists and what they are doing. It's all a DM illusion. If in your mind the illusion of choice requires several different story hooks the DM fleshes out as you go, so be it. Not how I play or ever will, but I've heard plenty ask for it because it makes them feel like their character is making more meaningful choices even when it isn't the case. It's what they refer to as a sandbox adventure. Multiple story/adventure hooks that gives the player an option to choose their direction. I've run that type of campaign as well. It very much is still my story. Choosing a direction is not writing a story. Your story is your background and the PCs/NPCs you choose to interact with that I place in front of you. They will react off your choices as I the DM deem appropriate for their character. If I'm doing my job right, you will believe your character is real and that his choices matter. That has always been the job of the DM. D&D has always been cooperative story-telling. The DM tailors it to make that cooperative story-telling by doing as you stated earlier: learning what his players respond to. [/QUOTE]
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