Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The Gloves Are Off?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8871479" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I don't see why not. Afterall, I am speaking from experience here. This sort of thing happens say every five or six sessions with particular players, and pretty much never with most of them. There is always that one player who, when anything bad happens to them, throws a bit of a temper tantrum and tries to argue their way out of it on some grounds. These arguments are invariably in bad faith, because unlike the occasional arguments offered up by other players - there is not some immediate and substantial point. Again, this is a very different matter if the player can actually point to the gloves on his character sheet and isn't trying to rules lawyer up some previously undiscussed gloves from an entry on clothing that makes no mention of them. </p><p></p><p>The player(s) that I have had to fight this fight over and over with are always the same ones that cheat with the dice, and almost always the same ones that are all the time getting into trouble because they are so used to relying on their cheating and metagaming to get them out again that it's harmed their actual ability to learn to be a clever player. Why think of gloves beforehand when you can invent them after wards, or sit at the far end of the table and tell everyone you rolled an 18 or 19 with every meaningful roll?</p><p></p><p>This behavior doesn't need defending. Rather, it needs called out in case someone out there is like, "I don't see why demanding a retcon if I can imagine a defense based on the absence of evidence is bad, after all no one has ever said I don't have gloves." It's as dysfunctional as heck. It's childish. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, point. If for some reason it was an openly disclosed table rule that all the players could invent into the fiction before you resolve the fortune, then it would cease to be dysfunctional. The trouble being, I can't think of any published game that actually encourages that because it totally destroys most of the aesthetics of play you could have in exchange for just a potential minor increase in fantasy and expression that in practice I don't think would be realized because as I pointed out before, the ability to inject fiction after the secret is revealed discourages the player from being specific, interactive, or communicative before the reveal since anything you introduced before the build would limit your own control over the narrative later. Any reasonably imaginative player allowed to gain control of the narrative like that should overcome any problem with ease, or at the very least always get at least one call on. So while you could play that way, I don't think anyone does. Because it's so obvious that control over the narrative is powerful enough to resolve any situation, I think that games that go that route instead start with the reveal and ask the table how they overcome the obstacle, "There is contact poison on the doorknob. Explain how you overcome it." In other words, they drop the procedural methodology, set the stakes first and then do fortune at the end - which is the narrative methodology I described earlier. In that game, how you do things is vastly more important than whether you can and your clever plans can never do more than influence the scene.</p><p></p><p>So sure, there is a game in which there is a social contract that anyone can invent fiction after the fact to earn a retcon or at least a modification to the fortune, but importantly that universe isn't the one described by the OP. Because in that game, the thing doesn't require a ruling and doesn't need to be raised as a question on the boards.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8871479, member: 4937"] I don't see why not. Afterall, I am speaking from experience here. This sort of thing happens say every five or six sessions with particular players, and pretty much never with most of them. There is always that one player who, when anything bad happens to them, throws a bit of a temper tantrum and tries to argue their way out of it on some grounds. These arguments are invariably in bad faith, because unlike the occasional arguments offered up by other players - there is not some immediate and substantial point. Again, this is a very different matter if the player can actually point to the gloves on his character sheet and isn't trying to rules lawyer up some previously undiscussed gloves from an entry on clothing that makes no mention of them. The player(s) that I have had to fight this fight over and over with are always the same ones that cheat with the dice, and almost always the same ones that are all the time getting into trouble because they are so used to relying on their cheating and metagaming to get them out again that it's harmed their actual ability to learn to be a clever player. Why think of gloves beforehand when you can invent them after wards, or sit at the far end of the table and tell everyone you rolled an 18 or 19 with every meaningful roll? This behavior doesn't need defending. Rather, it needs called out in case someone out there is like, "I don't see why demanding a retcon if I can imagine a defense based on the absence of evidence is bad, after all no one has ever said I don't have gloves." It's as dysfunctional as heck. It's childish. OK, point. If for some reason it was an openly disclosed table rule that all the players could invent into the fiction before you resolve the fortune, then it would cease to be dysfunctional. The trouble being, I can't think of any published game that actually encourages that because it totally destroys most of the aesthetics of play you could have in exchange for just a potential minor increase in fantasy and expression that in practice I don't think would be realized because as I pointed out before, the ability to inject fiction after the secret is revealed discourages the player from being specific, interactive, or communicative before the reveal since anything you introduced before the build would limit your own control over the narrative later. Any reasonably imaginative player allowed to gain control of the narrative like that should overcome any problem with ease, or at the very least always get at least one call on. So while you could play that way, I don't think anyone does. Because it's so obvious that control over the narrative is powerful enough to resolve any situation, I think that games that go that route instead start with the reveal and ask the table how they overcome the obstacle, "There is contact poison on the doorknob. Explain how you overcome it." In other words, they drop the procedural methodology, set the stakes first and then do fortune at the end - which is the narrative methodology I described earlier. In that game, how you do things is vastly more important than whether you can and your clever plans can never do more than influence the scene. So sure, there is a game in which there is a social contract that anyone can invent fiction after the fact to earn a retcon or at least a modification to the fortune, but importantly that universe isn't the one described by the OP. Because in that game, the thing doesn't require a ruling and doesn't need to be raised as a question on the boards. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The Gloves Are Off?
Top