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The Gloves Are Off?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8873091" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Not in terms of resolution. At most, it just reduces the number of times I have to make assumptions about what the shoes are like. But there is typically in D&D a notable lack of rules concerning what clothing actually means or how it helps. How much of a difference does high hard boots make versus low soft boots anyway? Things like that I've been dealing with for 40 years.</p><p></p><p>Fortunately, most players make it easy be dressing appropriately for style reasons. But imagine in any edition how you deal with someone who wears leather armor or elven chain, but insists on wearing a closed great helm, heavy leather gauntlets, and high hard steel toed boots. That's the sort of thing you have to think about when DMing if players are going to insist gear matters.</p><p></p><p>Almost everyone in the thread has focused heavily on how the gloves/boots or whatever are inherently an advantage. And they just aren't if you are playing a more general skill-based game with a variety of challenges. You'd probably be happier barefoot on wet flowstone than you would be in a hard soled boot. Low boots fill with mud and become worse than being barefoot. High hard boots are hard to be stealthy in no matter what clothing you are wearing, etc. Which is one reason why the sudden appearance of hitherto unmentioned gloves is so awkward, because even if you did have gloves there is absolutely no guarantee that they'd be useful in this situation or that they wouldn't have been worse than useless hitherto in all the situations prior to this. </p><p></p><p>Another signal to me here is the assumption that you don't have to record gear very much assumes you don't play in a science fiction setting where often gear acts like magic items except that its fairly cheap and readily available. If you let players call out "I got that" in a setting were science is sufficiently close to magic, they would literally always have the solution to everything all the time unless you put some limits on things. (Heaven help me when my players figure out that they can buy makers that make other things in setting, which I'm surprised they haven't realized given how much most of them enjoy playing with 3D printers.)</p><p></p><p>Now, you don't have to use a process of play where gear matters to the resolution of the game, but as soon as the player goes, "But poison can't effect me, I have on gloves!" you have a player insisting that we have a process of play where gear matters (with some cause, it's not wrong to call out gear especially if you are leaning more toward game as simulation). </p><p></p><p>Fundamentally, it's the players responsibility in pretty much every system I'm aware of to call* on their gear as part of the proposition. Even in a Nar game without explicit gear, useful gear needs to be called on before you get to a resolution or fortune step - how you use your gear to gain extra dice, how your profession might apply to this check. Then the GM can rule on that. Wheedling the DM in retrospect because you didn't make a call is always bad play, even if it was an honest mistake. (Which 9 times out of 10 it isn't.)</p><p></p><p>*Call: To mention pertinent aspects of the fiction especially those that pertain to your character when making a proposition to ensure the DM makes the right decision because you both have the same mental image. </p><p></p><p>Failure to call is like a DM that describes a room, fails to mention the gaping hole in the middle of it, and then tells a player he's fallen into the obvious pit because he offered a proposition that implied crossing the room. That's not the player's fault. "Oh, didn't I tell you, there is a gargantuan dragon snoring in the room. You should have assumed that even though I didn't mention it. It wakes up and attacks". Everyone recognizes that's a problem. Well, this guy with his unestablished gloves that aren't on his character sheet and he claims he assumed he was wearing because "Traveller's Gear" is doing the same thing, and it's not the GMs burden to fix that. This whole situation goes differently if the player just asks, "What sort of gloves came with my Traveller's Gear?" Do that first, and you might just get gloves. Do that afterwards, and you don't.</p><p></p><p>There is such a thing as good play by players as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8873091, member: 4937"] Not in terms of resolution. At most, it just reduces the number of times I have to make assumptions about what the shoes are like. But there is typically in D&D a notable lack of rules concerning what clothing actually means or how it helps. How much of a difference does high hard boots make versus low soft boots anyway? Things like that I've been dealing with for 40 years. Fortunately, most players make it easy be dressing appropriately for style reasons. But imagine in any edition how you deal with someone who wears leather armor or elven chain, but insists on wearing a closed great helm, heavy leather gauntlets, and high hard steel toed boots. That's the sort of thing you have to think about when DMing if players are going to insist gear matters. Almost everyone in the thread has focused heavily on how the gloves/boots or whatever are inherently an advantage. And they just aren't if you are playing a more general skill-based game with a variety of challenges. You'd probably be happier barefoot on wet flowstone than you would be in a hard soled boot. Low boots fill with mud and become worse than being barefoot. High hard boots are hard to be stealthy in no matter what clothing you are wearing, etc. Which is one reason why the sudden appearance of hitherto unmentioned gloves is so awkward, because even if you did have gloves there is absolutely no guarantee that they'd be useful in this situation or that they wouldn't have been worse than useless hitherto in all the situations prior to this. Another signal to me here is the assumption that you don't have to record gear very much assumes you don't play in a science fiction setting where often gear acts like magic items except that its fairly cheap and readily available. If you let players call out "I got that" in a setting were science is sufficiently close to magic, they would literally always have the solution to everything all the time unless you put some limits on things. (Heaven help me when my players figure out that they can buy makers that make other things in setting, which I'm surprised they haven't realized given how much most of them enjoy playing with 3D printers.) Now, you don't have to use a process of play where gear matters to the resolution of the game, but as soon as the player goes, "But poison can't effect me, I have on gloves!" you have a player insisting that we have a process of play where gear matters (with some cause, it's not wrong to call out gear especially if you are leaning more toward game as simulation). Fundamentally, it's the players responsibility in pretty much every system I'm aware of to call* on their gear as part of the proposition. Even in a Nar game without explicit gear, useful gear needs to be called on before you get to a resolution or fortune step - how you use your gear to gain extra dice, how your profession might apply to this check. Then the GM can rule on that. Wheedling the DM in retrospect because you didn't make a call is always bad play, even if it was an honest mistake. (Which 9 times out of 10 it isn't.) *Call: To mention pertinent aspects of the fiction especially those that pertain to your character when making a proposition to ensure the DM makes the right decision because you both have the same mental image. Failure to call is like a DM that describes a room, fails to mention the gaping hole in the middle of it, and then tells a player he's fallen into the obvious pit because he offered a proposition that implied crossing the room. That's not the player's fault. "Oh, didn't I tell you, there is a gargantuan dragon snoring in the room. You should have assumed that even though I didn't mention it. It wakes up and attacks". Everyone recognizes that's a problem. Well, this guy with his unestablished gloves that aren't on his character sheet and he claims he assumed he was wearing because "Traveller's Gear" is doing the same thing, and it's not the GMs burden to fix that. This whole situation goes differently if the player just asks, "What sort of gloves came with my Traveller's Gear?" Do that first, and you might just get gloves. Do that afterwards, and you don't. There is such a thing as good play by players as well. [/QUOTE]
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