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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8663877" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>It's not an objective thing. It's entirely subjective. Something you find fun I might find tedious to the point of falling asleep. That's why you set expectations when you form a group.</p><p></p><p>Losses and setbacks aren't fun, so just remove them. Saves time and increases joy.</p><p></p><p>For me, I'm more interested in seeing what the players do. How they deal with losses and setbacks. That's the interesting part. If it takes the whole session for them to finally stop pounding their head against a brick wall, that's their choice to make, not mine. I set up the situations, it's up to the players to engage, ignore, or deal with them however they see fit. It's not my place to decide for them where they go, what they do, or how they handle obstacles.</p><p></p><p>Again with the assumption that fun is somehow objective. It's still not.</p><p></p><p>Besides, it's the players' choice to pound their head against a wall. If that's what they find fun, or at least find more bearable than the alternative, it's up to them to choose. Because player agency matters. Like a lot. It's literally the only reason to have players at the table. Otherwise the referee can just write a story.</p><p></p><p>Sure. Lots of games out there. Knock yourself out.</p><p></p><p>I've been doing this almost 40 years and I've never seen a group willingly get captured. I've seen a lot of referees try to force the issue and the resultant TPK pissed everyone off. Because most players would rather their characters die than lose agency.</p><p></p><p>Because you're the referee, not the player. You have an infinite supply of characters to play. In most games, your players will only have one at a time. If their one character loses agency...that player now doesn't get to play the game. Until you give them back control of their character. But, often, in capture scenarios referees will steal their agency...steal all their gear...then lock them in a cell. So they go from being powerful characters with agency...to weak characters with none. It's fine for you as the referee, because you haven't lost agency. Give that trick a try at a table with real players and see how it goes. Ask them what they think.</p><p></p><p>Sure. So don't take away their agency by capturing them. If they'd rather die than get captured, honor that. A TPK isn't a campaign killer. You just have to get creative. Resurrection. Animate Dead. Necromancers. Fighting your way out of hell.</p><p></p><p>Non-lethal damage has been clunky over the years, but it's almost always present. The part that's not supported is skipping over the fight and going straight to the capture. You could always ambush them in their sleep. Attack them in bed. Or any number of other nasty things. Might go over a bit better than an hours' long fight they can't hope to win. I doubt it very much though.</p><p></p><p>But that's the rub. RPGs are not fiction. They don't need to handle fictional situations that go against the basic premise of the game. I don't think it's a weakness in the system. I think it's a feature of players understanding what role-playing games are. These are games of power fantasy. An exercise in imagination and creativity and a chance to be cooler and more powerful than you are in the real world. Most times at least, some of us play horror games. This particular fictional situation is a denial of that. It stops the game from being what it is. It stops the players from getting to play their power fantasy. They'd rather go down swinging than give that up. That's a feature, not a bug.</p><p></p><p>The secret is lighter rules and players who accept that. In a game like Fate you can just hand out fate points at the start and say, "you all wake up in a cell." The players still groan, but at least they get the fate point and you didn't waste their time with a fight. You could do the same with Inspiration in 5E, though players still being players are likely to be pissed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 8663877, member: 86653"] It's not an objective thing. It's entirely subjective. Something you find fun I might find tedious to the point of falling asleep. That's why you set expectations when you form a group. Losses and setbacks aren't fun, so just remove them. Saves time and increases joy. For me, I'm more interested in seeing what the players do. How they deal with losses and setbacks. That's the interesting part. If it takes the whole session for them to finally stop pounding their head against a brick wall, that's their choice to make, not mine. I set up the situations, it's up to the players to engage, ignore, or deal with them however they see fit. It's not my place to decide for them where they go, what they do, or how they handle obstacles. Again with the assumption that fun is somehow objective. It's still not. Besides, it's the players' choice to pound their head against a wall. If that's what they find fun, or at least find more bearable than the alternative, it's up to them to choose. Because player agency matters. Like a lot. It's literally the only reason to have players at the table. Otherwise the referee can just write a story. Sure. Lots of games out there. Knock yourself out. I've been doing this almost 40 years and I've never seen a group willingly get captured. I've seen a lot of referees try to force the issue and the resultant TPK pissed everyone off. Because most players would rather their characters die than lose agency. Because you're the referee, not the player. You have an infinite supply of characters to play. In most games, your players will only have one at a time. If their one character loses agency...that player now doesn't get to play the game. Until you give them back control of their character. But, often, in capture scenarios referees will steal their agency...steal all their gear...then lock them in a cell. So they go from being powerful characters with agency...to weak characters with none. It's fine for you as the referee, because you haven't lost agency. Give that trick a try at a table with real players and see how it goes. Ask them what they think. Sure. So don't take away their agency by capturing them. If they'd rather die than get captured, honor that. A TPK isn't a campaign killer. You just have to get creative. Resurrection. Animate Dead. Necromancers. Fighting your way out of hell. Non-lethal damage has been clunky over the years, but it's almost always present. The part that's not supported is skipping over the fight and going straight to the capture. You could always ambush them in their sleep. Attack them in bed. Or any number of other nasty things. Might go over a bit better than an hours' long fight they can't hope to win. I doubt it very much though. But that's the rub. RPGs are not fiction. They don't need to handle fictional situations that go against the basic premise of the game. I don't think it's a weakness in the system. I think it's a feature of players understanding what role-playing games are. These are games of power fantasy. An exercise in imagination and creativity and a chance to be cooler and more powerful than you are in the real world. Most times at least, some of us play horror games. This particular fictional situation is a denial of that. It stops the game from being what it is. It stops the players from getting to play their power fantasy. They'd rather go down swinging than give that up. That's a feature, not a bug. The secret is lighter rules and players who accept that. In a game like Fate you can just hand out fate points at the start and say, "you all wake up in a cell." The players still groan, but at least they get the fate point and you didn't waste their time with a fight. You could do the same with Inspiration in 5E, though players still being players are likely to be pissed. [/QUOTE]
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