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<blockquote data-quote="snickersnax" data-source="post: 7742124" data-attributes="member: 6888204">Many people have ideas about charisma that may or may not be consistent.&nbsp; I&nbsp; think of charisma as natural ability to socially influence.&nbsp; Mind flayers and beholders are clearly leadership style monsters and they are very good at it.&nbsp; Charisma seems consistent with their lore.&nbsp;&nbsp; However, AFAIK Pathfinder doesn't have mindflayers or beholders, so they are irrelevant to the argument.Gibbering mouthers are creatures of insanity that influence others to become insane through their gibbering.&nbsp; I personally agree with you that gibbering mouthers should probably have lower charisma, and 5e has already adjusted their charisma to 6.&nbsp; OTOH 5e doesn't give a charisma bonus to goblins either.&nbsp; Maybe Pf2 will fix this as well.Goblins with a +2 charisma bonus is from the pathfinder playtest. Paizo describes gobins as tending to follow strong leaders, but why would they do that if goblins are charismatic enough to be strong leaders themselves?&nbsp; In their lore, Goblins still occupying low social status places, trash tinkerers, and cannon fodder.&nbsp; A +2 ancestral charisma bonus means that goblins should be occupying higher social status/ leadership positions, and for PC parties that means that goblins may often be the most socially influential and best choice for a &quot;face&quot; for the party.&nbsp; This represents a HUGE break from previous D&amp;D editions.&nbsp; It's not A pathfinder goblin it's ALL pathfinder goblins.&nbsp; Since it is an ancestral bonus, it implies that it comes from goblin genes, not from the backstory of a particular goblin who is more charismatic than the rest of his family.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="snickersnax, post: 7742124, member: 6888204"] Many people have ideas about charisma that may or may not be consistent. I think of charisma as natural ability to socially influence. Mind flayers and beholders are clearly leadership style monsters and they are very good at it. Charisma seems consistent with their lore. However, AFAIK Pathfinder doesn't have mindflayers or beholders, so they are irrelevant to the argument. Gibbering mouthers are creatures of insanity that influence others to become insane through their gibbering. I personally agree with you that gibbering mouthers should probably have lower charisma, and 5e has already adjusted their charisma to 6. OTOH 5e doesn't give a charisma bonus to goblins either. Maybe Pf2 will fix this as well. Goblins with a +2 charisma bonus is from the pathfinder playtest. Paizo describes gobins as tending to follow strong leaders, but why would they do that if goblins are charismatic enough to be strong leaders themselves? In their lore, Goblins still occupying low social status places, trash tinkerers, and cannon fodder. A +2 ancestral charisma bonus means that goblins should be occupying higher social status/ leadership positions, and for PC parties that means that goblins may often be the most socially influential and best choice for a "face" for the party. This represents a HUGE break from previous D&D editions. It's not [U]A[/U] pathfinder goblin it's [U]ALL[/U] pathfinder goblins. Since it is an ancestral bonus, it implies that it comes from goblin genes, not from the backstory of a particular goblin who is more charismatic than the rest of his family. [/QUOTE]

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