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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7990824" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>Still not convinced you are calculating the fighter's damage properly. I also have some comments on your AOE calcs but I will save them till that section.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Awesome!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agree! And I think it's worth mentioning how much more it benefits a rogue than any other class.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but there is an opportunity cost for your build when it comes to trying to act as a "defender". You end up giving up significant damage from eldritch blast. As while you are engaged in melee you have disadvantage with eldritch blast. You can use booming blade in lieu and bypass the disadvantage but that's still significantly less damage.</p><p></p><p>The versatility is nice but it's not like you can defend without significantly lowering your damage output.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It really depends on whether enemies ever target downed PC's - which is more of a DM call. If they do then waiting till a PC is downed to heal them does increase the risk of death significantly. There's also the question of how likely enemies are to bypass high defense characters for squishier ones - which also depends on the DM. If they do then buffing a characters defenses likely doesn't help much - in which case while healing is less efficient in terms of hp per spell, it's still a better option as it can be focused where needed.</p><p></p><p>But honestly it really depends on how the DM runs his monsters.</p><p></p><p>In terms of concentration - the higher your defenses are and more time you spend at range the less important a really high concentration save is. High AC + Shield spell eliminates most concentration saves. Having con proficiency and some stat points into con gives you a high enough save for the attacks that get through.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It depends on the DM, the number of enemies, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>5e isn't very sticky. OA's lose a lot of impact after level 5+ as monster hp gets high and your damage scales off multi attacking.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a big assumption that isn't necessarily true.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Too many assumptions to draw the conclusions that you are. The most you can say is: "in my games monsters typically stay engaged with the melee warrior even when the melee warrior has a high AC".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know that I fully agree, but I think we can agree that typical AOE assumptions are highly subjective and I'm good leaving that part as is with that caveat. However, this is not the part I took issue with.</p><p></p><p>The issue is that an AOE that hits 3 enemies isn't actually having the impact of a single target attack doing 3x the damage. What you actually find is that the damage translates to about 100% impact on the first target and 50% impact on each subsequent target. So an AOE hitting 3 enemies is going to be more like *2 of the single target damage equivalent instead of *3. And AOE hitting 5 enemies is going to be more like *3 of the single target damage equivalent instead of *5.</p><p></p><p>We had a thread on here analyzing this very question at some point in the fairly recent past and that was the best estimate we were able to arrive at.</p><p></p><p>This will have a huge impact on your conclusions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Solid summation</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>While that's a simple easy to calculate picture - its far from accurate as enemies aren't actually defeated as a big blob. Having 1 KPR of single target damage is vastly better than having 1 KPR of AOE damage that is split over 4 targets. Why? Because I'm actually reducing the enemies actions by 1 per round with the single target wheras the full action compliment never gets reduced till encounter end for the AOE character. Both take exactly the same number of rounds till victory. In this case the single target character takes 4+3+2+1 = 10 Actions. The AOE Character takes 4+4+4+4 = 16 Actions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7990824, member: 6795602"] Still not convinced you are calculating the fighter's damage properly. I also have some comments on your AOE calcs but I will save them till that section. Awesome! Agree! And I think it's worth mentioning how much more it benefits a rogue than any other class. Right, but there is an opportunity cost for your build when it comes to trying to act as a "defender". You end up giving up significant damage from eldritch blast. As while you are engaged in melee you have disadvantage with eldritch blast. You can use booming blade in lieu and bypass the disadvantage but that's still significantly less damage. The versatility is nice but it's not like you can defend without significantly lowering your damage output. It really depends on whether enemies ever target downed PC's - which is more of a DM call. If they do then waiting till a PC is downed to heal them does increase the risk of death significantly. There's also the question of how likely enemies are to bypass high defense characters for squishier ones - which also depends on the DM. If they do then buffing a characters defenses likely doesn't help much - in which case while healing is less efficient in terms of hp per spell, it's still a better option as it can be focused where needed. But honestly it really depends on how the DM runs his monsters. In terms of concentration - the higher your defenses are and more time you spend at range the less important a really high concentration save is. High AC + Shield spell eliminates most concentration saves. Having con proficiency and some stat points into con gives you a high enough save for the attacks that get through. It depends on the DM, the number of enemies, etc. 5e isn't very sticky. OA's lose a lot of impact after level 5+ as monster hp gets high and your damage scales off multi attacking. That's a big assumption that isn't necessarily true. Too many assumptions to draw the conclusions that you are. The most you can say is: "in my games monsters typically stay engaged with the melee warrior even when the melee warrior has a high AC". I don't know that I fully agree, but I think we can agree that typical AOE assumptions are highly subjective and I'm good leaving that part as is with that caveat. However, this is not the part I took issue with. The issue is that an AOE that hits 3 enemies isn't actually having the impact of a single target attack doing 3x the damage. What you actually find is that the damage translates to about 100% impact on the first target and 50% impact on each subsequent target. So an AOE hitting 3 enemies is going to be more like *2 of the single target damage equivalent instead of *3. And AOE hitting 5 enemies is going to be more like *3 of the single target damage equivalent instead of *5. We had a thread on here analyzing this very question at some point in the fairly recent past and that was the best estimate we were able to arrive at. This will have a huge impact on your conclusions. Solid summation While that's a simple easy to calculate picture - its far from accurate as enemies aren't actually defeated as a big blob. Having 1 KPR of single target damage is vastly better than having 1 KPR of AOE damage that is split over 4 targets. Why? Because I'm actually reducing the enemies actions by 1 per round with the single target wheras the full action compliment never gets reduced till encounter end for the AOE character. Both take exactly the same number of rounds till victory. In this case the single target character takes 4+3+2+1 = 10 Actions. The AOE Character takes 4+4+4+4 = 16 Actions. [/QUOTE]
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