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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 5729510" data-attributes="member: 54707">This thread in particular: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/313880-we-dont-slaughter.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/313880-we-dont-slaughter.html</a> had in it some rather interesting side-discussions. Such as discussion and debates on alignment, behavior of animals, monsters, and other creatures, and whether they should even have alignments, etc. However in the thread prosfilaes made an observation on the nature of the cultures and societies of man, elves, and dwarves.  prosfilaes said:  Regardless of whether I agree with the statement made in the particulars of that argument or not I did think it a very astute observation in general. When I was young and first started playing D&D it was always assumed that Human, Elvin, and Dwarven cultures and societies were more civilized and good. (Personally I think that is the way they should be, unless the setting calls for some exception to the rule, and monsters and monster cultures should be evil - again unless there is some specific exception. This does not mean that specific monsters cannot become good, or that some by nature aren't good, and it doesn't mean specific men, elves, and dwarves can't be bad, or are bad or evil. Obviously individuals can be as they choose regardless of their culture. However for purpose of this discussion I am speaking of the cultural and societal "levels".) To me human, elven and dwarven cultures, although imperfect of course, should naturally represent, most of the time, civilization and those values most naturally assume to be "good." Whereas monster and evil cultures should represent barbarism (not in the politically correct or sociological senses of outside ethnic groups or uncivilized peoples) but in the senses of overt violence, lawlessness, destructiveness, and outright evil. Of course a lot would be milieu dependent, but I'm speaking in very general terms. Humans and their allies are civilized and good, monsters and their ilk are barbaric and evil. From my perspective exception to this rule make for superbly interesting adventures and even campaigns, but generally speaking, my point of view is men are men and monsters are monsters. And their societies reflect their conflicting values. I'm not sure this holds true anymore. I'm not even sure D&D holds valuable, or inherent within it, or necessary, or even natural the assumption that human, elven, and dwarven cultures should basically represent "the good." For a long time, like modern culture itself, it seemed very enamored and obsessed with basically decaying civilizations and dystopias, rather than well-regulated and functioning societies at war against those societies that were not. When I first started playing D&D it was Civilization at War with and/or on the frontiers of barbarism and evil. Civilization was on the ascent, but it was an extremely rough fight. Not guaranteed as to outcome, and that was one thing that the characters were there to help assure, that civilization and the good triumphed. Then it became advanced D&D civilizations in a state of decay and moral corruption. Then self-obsessed civilizations at war with themselves more than anything else. Then settings in which societies could feel guilty or conflicted about their own success or behavior, and characters were not representatives of their society, but rebels from it, or self-absorbed self-promoters. Perhaps now it has changed yet again, or maybe it is about to. I don't know. Maybe these general D&D milieu views reflect our own general society at the time of their construction, or maybe they don't. That could be another interesting discussion. Now all that being said, I ask you, in your opinion: "Should the civilizations of man, elves, dwarves, and other such allied peoples be civilized and should they represent those ideals and principles generally considered to be 'good'"? If so why, if not, why not? And what exactly should be the "Good Society" in D&D and fantasy role play/adventure games? How should it operate and what should it represent?</blockquote>

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