Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The Great D&D Schism: The End of an age and the scattering of gamers
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6249799" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>To an extent, you're completely right, @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=14159" target="_blank">wingsandsword</a></u></strong></em>. 3.x was fairly groundbreaking in its unification of the D&D fanbase, even from the beginning--considering how TSR knowingly fractured their own fanbase with "basic" D&D and "advanced" D&D. </p><p></p><p>About a year ago <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?326771-With-Respect-to-the-Door-and-Expectations-The-REAL-Reason-5e-Can-t-Unite-the-Base" target="_blank">I posted a thread</a> describing, however, that "unification" itself is a bit of a fallacy, in that we've never <em>really </em>been united in our choice to play Dungeons and Dragons.</p><p></p><p>There's been massive tensions and "drift" for D&D in actual play for a long, long time. People have wanted very different things from their RPG experience, but a lot of us stuck with D&D because it was popular enough that everyone at least had some experience with it, and if it wasn't <em>exactly </em>what we wanted from an RPG, it was close enough, and there was enough "traction" in the gaming community at large that we just went along with it. Getting groups / players to branch out was generally a difficult task, and required great amounts of effort from a GM to go out of his or her way to specifically <em>recruit </em>for it.</p><p></p><p>Even now, how much easier would it be to recruit a group at your local FLGS to play a Pathfinder campaign versus say, GURPS or Runequest? </p><p></p><p>The 4e / 3.x schism just happened at a time where the dissenting love / hate opinions with the 4e system were codified into a public space -- the Internet. The rift became that much more real because we were in front of it, many of us participating in it, every day, all around us.</p><p></p><p>We had opportunities to explore the <em>why</em> of that rift, to explore the dimensions behind the theory and game designs of each system, and to better understand our own preferences in gaming. To me, this is a massive positive of the "Edition Wars," which makes me a little bit hesitant to label anything an "edition war," or to even discount someone else's opinion, even if it's couched somewhat in vitriol. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sadly, I'm fairly certain you're right, @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=17106" target="_blank">Ahnehnois</a></u></strong></em>. Based on the playtest feedback I've seen here and elsewhere, 5e doesn't appear to be pushing the right buttons for enough people to become the "grand unification" edition. From the feedback I've seen, the very FIRST playtest packet seemed to be the most popular, because it specifically touched the "OSR" nerve in a lot of people. Everything from the first packet onward seemed to produce an increasingly smaller return on investment, in terms of fan appreciation.</p><p></p><p>Truly, the best we can do is enjoy our own games---but the trick now is to go out and find the game you'll most enjoy! The available gaming options for any given group are staggering. There's virtually no reason to play a game / system you're not really enjoying. </p><p></p><p>The biggest danger to D&D as a whole is a group of fans like me, who break away from D&D by trying other stuff, and then suddenly realize that they don't miss D&D at all, because they've found a game or games that radically suit their needs better. I'm definitely in that camp. </p><p></p><p>Pretty much any variety of D&D / d20 is easily now fourth or fifth on my list of systems I'd like to play / run, even the ones I actually LIKE such as Fantasy Craft and Radiance. </p><p></p><p>D&D Next's problem isn't just that it's fighting against Pathfinder, and 4e inertia. It's also in a very real fight against Fate, Savage Worlds, and the ever-growing OSR movement for mind share.</p><p></p><p>WotC is just now coming to realize that as <a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Ftalks%2Fmalcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html&ei=AbTeUoqcL4W6oQTd3IDQDw&usg=AFQjCNE9y2Ygs32ki3YuiwoOk1C1j4VekA&sig2=jDCQEk4LVs-Y88nUSuRuKw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cGU" target="_blank">Malcolm Gladwell described in a famous TED talk</a>, we don't want "the one perfect D&D spaghetti sauce." We want fifteen different "D&D spaghetti sauces." 5e is obviously an attempt to do this, but I don't think it's going to be modular enough to achieve "unification." </p><p></p><p>If the 5e framework is solid, and future modularity can be built piece by piece into it, then I think 10 years from now, 5.5e or 6e may have a shot at it. But the current landscape makes "unification" pretty much a pipe dream.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6249799, member: 85870"] To an extent, you're completely right, @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=14159"]wingsandsword[/URL][/U][/B][/I]. 3.x was fairly groundbreaking in its unification of the D&D fanbase, even from the beginning--considering how TSR knowingly fractured their own fanbase with "basic" D&D and "advanced" D&D. About a year ago [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?326771-With-Respect-to-the-Door-and-Expectations-The-REAL-Reason-5e-Can-t-Unite-the-Base"]I posted a thread[/URL] describing, however, that "unification" itself is a bit of a fallacy, in that we've never [I]really [/I]been united in our choice to play Dungeons and Dragons. There's been massive tensions and "drift" for D&D in actual play for a long, long time. People have wanted very different things from their RPG experience, but a lot of us stuck with D&D because it was popular enough that everyone at least had some experience with it, and if it wasn't [I]exactly [/I]what we wanted from an RPG, it was close enough, and there was enough "traction" in the gaming community at large that we just went along with it. Getting groups / players to branch out was generally a difficult task, and required great amounts of effort from a GM to go out of his or her way to specifically [I]recruit [/I]for it. Even now, how much easier would it be to recruit a group at your local FLGS to play a Pathfinder campaign versus say, GURPS or Runequest? The 4e / 3.x schism just happened at a time where the dissenting love / hate opinions with the 4e system were codified into a public space -- the Internet. The rift became that much more real because we were in front of it, many of us participating in it, every day, all around us. We had opportunities to explore the [I]why[/I] of that rift, to explore the dimensions behind the theory and game designs of each system, and to better understand our own preferences in gaming. To me, this is a massive positive of the "Edition Wars," which makes me a little bit hesitant to label anything an "edition war," or to even discount someone else's opinion, even if it's couched somewhat in vitriol. Sadly, I'm fairly certain you're right, @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=17106"]Ahnehnois[/URL][/U][/B][/I]. Based on the playtest feedback I've seen here and elsewhere, 5e doesn't appear to be pushing the right buttons for enough people to become the "grand unification" edition. From the feedback I've seen, the very FIRST playtest packet seemed to be the most popular, because it specifically touched the "OSR" nerve in a lot of people. Everything from the first packet onward seemed to produce an increasingly smaller return on investment, in terms of fan appreciation. Truly, the best we can do is enjoy our own games---but the trick now is to go out and find the game you'll most enjoy! The available gaming options for any given group are staggering. There's virtually no reason to play a game / system you're not really enjoying. The biggest danger to D&D as a whole is a group of fans like me, who break away from D&D by trying other stuff, and then suddenly realize that they don't miss D&D at all, because they've found a game or games that radically suit their needs better. I'm definitely in that camp. Pretty much any variety of D&D / d20 is easily now fourth or fifth on my list of systems I'd like to play / run, even the ones I actually LIKE such as Fantasy Craft and Radiance. D&D Next's problem isn't just that it's fighting against Pathfinder, and 4e inertia. It's also in a very real fight against Fate, Savage Worlds, and the ever-growing OSR movement for mind share. WotC is just now coming to realize that as [URL="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Ftalks%2Fmalcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html&ei=AbTeUoqcL4W6oQTd3IDQDw&usg=AFQjCNE9y2Ygs32ki3YuiwoOk1C1j4VekA&sig2=jDCQEk4LVs-Y88nUSuRuKw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cGU"]Malcolm Gladwell described in a famous TED talk[/URL], we don't want "the one perfect D&D spaghetti sauce." We want fifteen different "D&D spaghetti sauces." 5e is obviously an attempt to do this, but I don't think it's going to be modular enough to achieve "unification." If the 5e framework is solid, and future modularity can be built piece by piece into it, then I think 10 years from now, 5.5e or 6e may have a shot at it. But the current landscape makes "unification" pretty much a pipe dream. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The Great D&D Schism: The End of an age and the scattering of gamers
Top