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<blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9732850" data-attributes="member: 6684958">I'm in the other camp, of course.I would just add to this Metagaming , as I think it's important that a player should not be able to ruin a game for everyone just as they are a jerk.&nbsp; Wait, you lost me.&nbsp; It's Railroading if a player is clueless?&nbsp; This is sort of saying like 95% of all players are railroading themselves?True.I agree.&nbsp; I put this as one of the Top DM problems: not knowing how to write.&nbsp; And it is not just &quot;writing a novel&quot;, it is &quot;writing an RPG scene, encounter, plot or story.&nbsp; This again falls under bad writing, or even bad game craft.&nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; Most clumsy DMs are just inexperienced or have never really been taught how to DM.&nbsp; Though I do count Casual DMs as bad because of their &quot;whatever&quot; attitude.&nbsp;&nbsp; Metagame fits though, right?&nbsp; It is what you call something done Within the game for Real Life reasons.For example, no matter what each PC is as their personality and backstory they Must be a group of adventures together, because it would be wrong to tell a player &quot;all the other PCs hate your character so you can't play that character&quot;.Same way it is metagaming when a player has their PC like an other PC that is a hag or harpy just because they find the player of that PC attractive and want to flirt.When a DM make a clue easy to find it is metagaming.&nbsp; Plot Step?&nbsp; Event Point?&nbsp; Again, this goes back to good writing......and more to the point good RPG design.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do second having such conversations.&nbsp; Agreed.&nbsp; Though I would add on the even more &quot;don't do it even with an agreed by-in&quot;.&nbsp; A lot of players don't like the buy-in concept.&nbsp; They will do it, but endlessly complain &quot;guess we agreed to do it so we must whatever&quot; and then sort of half-play as they are unhappy.It is best to have Inciting Incidents that really hook the players....hook, line and sinker.&nbsp; Make a good one, and the players will jump on it very willingly.At Least Three Things comes into play here too.&nbsp; It is often best to have three or more reasons for the PCs to do any task, adventure, plot or story.&nbsp; The easy way is to have all the PC be Lawmen, then it is simple enough for them to go after&nbsp; criminal.&nbsp; More complex is to give each PC a unique reason.&nbsp; One of the nice things about 5E is the bit of the focus on affiliations and factions.&nbsp; This gives PCs built in reasons to do things....assuming the players role play deeply.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="bloodtide, post: 9732850, member: 6684958"] I'm in the other camp, of course. I would just add to this [B]Metagaming [/B], as I think it's important that a player should not be able to ruin a game for everyone just as they are a jerk. Wait, you lost me. It's Railroading if a player is clueless? This is sort of saying like 95% of all players are railroading themselves? True. I agree. I put this as one of the Top DM problems: not knowing how to write. And it is not just "writing a novel", it is "writing an RPG scene, encounter, plot or story. This again falls under bad writing, or even bad game craft. Agreed. Most clumsy DMs are just inexperienced or have never really been taught how to DM. Though I do count Casual DMs as bad because of their "whatever" attitude. [B]Metagame [/B]fits though, right? It is what you call something done Within the game for Real Life reasons. For example, no matter what each PC is as their personality and backstory they Must be a group of adventures together, because it would be wrong to tell a player "all the other PCs hate your character so you can't play that character". Same way it is [B]metagaming [/B]when a player has their PC like an other PC that is a hag or harpy just because they find the player of that PC attractive and want to flirt. When a DM make a clue easy to find it is [B]metagaming. [/B] Plot Step? Event Point? Again, this goes back to good writing......and more to the point good RPG design. I do second having such conversations. Agreed. Though I would add on the even more "don't do it even with an agreed by-in". A lot of players don't like the buy-in concept. They will do it, but endlessly complain "guess we agreed to do it so we must whatever" and then sort of half-play as they are unhappy. It is best to have Inciting Incidents that really hook the players....hook, line and sinker. Make a good one, and the players will jump on it very willingly. [B]At Least Three Things [/B]comes into play here too. It is often best to have three or more reasons for the PCs to do any task, adventure, plot or story. The easy way is to have all the PC be Lawmen, then it is simple enough for them to go after criminal. More complex is to give each PC a unique reason. One of the nice things about 5E is the bit of the focus on affiliations and factions. This gives PCs built in reasons to do things....assuming the players role play deeply. [/QUOTE]

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