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Message: <blockquote data-quote="UngeheuerLich" data-source="post: 9775670" data-attributes="member: 59057">Now that I have a bit time on my hands, I try to do a proper calculation in your scenario, using the cleric and two champion fighters. AC ranges at CR 8 are 14 - 18. Probably somwhere around 16 on average. In that case it is an average of 6.6 damage on a hit. +6 does not sound that unreasonable, probably due to 15 str and a +1 weapon. Could also be 16 str amd a magic weapon if the cleric considers a weapon attack to be a good choice. So it might also be 0.6*13. But probably the better course of action would be casting either sacred flame (2d8+4 against dex), toll the dead(2d8 or even 2d12+4 against wounded targets against wisdom) or word of radiance (2d6+4 against multiple targets against constitution) instead, divine spark does 2d8+4 damage against consitution). Lets just assume a single unhurt target and either wis or dex is an ok save to target. Lets just assume +2 to save on average on the worst save.  DC is 15. So also 0.6*13. So 7.8 damage. Now they probably lose 7.8 damage but gained the possibility of casting a bonus action spell on top. Spiritual weapon or so. Don't count it in, but still note that as opportunity cost. A level 1 spell could be sanctuary (no concentration) or shield of faith for some added protection for a front liner (we assume enemies use attack rolls, otherwise bless is obviously a good choice). A spell that replaces the cantrip could be the not well liked inflict wounds if con is the worst saving throw (again, assume a bonus of +2 against DC 15).It does 11*0.6+5.5*0.4 = 8.8 damage on average. All that damage is front loaded. You assume the cleric attacks every round. They might want to cast spells in the next round. In that case, the bonus is wasted on the cleric. And all the +1d4 on themself does is allowing to hold conventration better... for bless itself. They should action surge as soon as possible.18 Str and a +1 weapon seems fair. Or even 20 Str and a +1 weapon.I assume you use a great sword. So 2d6+6 in my books. And since I consider GWF and GWM as good (enough) feats, I guess we should add +4 extra damage on average. But I also assume graze. So their real DPR is (0.7*17+0.3*5+0.1*7)2+(1-0.9^2)(0.7*14+0.3*5+0.1*7) =~ 30.5 without using action surge. Chance for an extra attack on a crit factored in. Assumed champion subclass. (0.7*17+0.3*5+0.1*7)*2 = 28.2 extra using action surge for a total of 58.7 (56.13 without champion subclass) damage against an average enemy.2 of those fighters do around 117.5 damage on the first round of combat. If both fighters are blessed, chances increase by 2.5/20=0.125 per hit. So those two fighters deal ((0.825*17+0.175*5+0.1*7)4+(1-0.9^2)(0.825*14+0.175*5+0.1*7)) *2 = 129.7875 on average in the first round of combat. Against 125.3 if the cleric just attacks. Assuming the cleric goes first. So. I just used one round of combat. Let's see why:135 is a common HP pool for CR 8 creatures. CR is a low to medium encounter for a 3 person party of level 8.One where preserving slots makes sense. This is also a very good level for fighter DPR. 3 feats to get str to 20. The cleric gained nothing noteworthy on that level (wis probably went up to 19).So the damage done to the average low to medium challenging monster is high enough without using a spell slot at all to kill the beast on round 2, and using that spell slot will probably not allow you to kill the beast in round 1.I did consider the most likely weapon mastery. Topple is a bit more difficult to calculate. I will do a this claculation later. Still correct.But now backed us with more realistic numbers, we see that bless is only increasing damage by  around 4 points on average. Considering that the party does around 125 damage, that is just a bit more than a 3% increase in total damage. Probably not worth the slot. And if the cleric does not go first (which you assumed), it is even less. If the cleric has alert, they will go first, but this is another opportunity cost paid. Instead they could be a sage and have taken true strike with magic initiate or be a high elf instead of a human. (one feat against one cantrip). True strike will increase the damage output of the cleric from 7.8 on average to 0.65*(2d8+1d6+5)=0.65*17.5=~11.4That almost makes up the total difference between using bless or not. Inflict wounds is a bit on the weak side compared to that. 3d4+3 averages 10.5. But clerics usually don't get magic missile. 8.8 hower is not extraordinary terrible. Probably not worth the slot though. They should not have nerfed it. Making it a save instead of an attack roll would have been sufficient to lower the chance to instant kill a level 1 PC with a crit. Also no cleric spell. Also no cleric spell. Guiding bolt against AC 16 might actually be a useful spell if the topple mastery is used by one of the fighters.A 60% chance to grant advantage and deal 4d6 damage is not terrible at all.Btw: the cleric did not chose a subclass.A light cleric could use radiance of the dawn for 2d10+8, save half damage (vs constitution), probably dealing around 15 (area) damage on average, enough to mame up for the loss of bless. Or cast burning hand for reliable damage (and preventing regeneration), or fairy fire for constant advantage if dex is the save is bad on the target. A trickery cleric could use invoke duplicitely if they decided to attack in melee for advantage. War cleric is a tricky one. +10 to hit will make sure one attack that would miss will now hit for certain. And they can cast spiritual weapon without concentration on top of casting bless.So, I will stand by my assessment. Bless is a very good spell in certain situations. But it is not worth casting all the time, due to the fact that in the cases where it is good, it is probably not needed at all, and where it is great, using higher level spells have higher priority. Great situations are, when you can precast it and a boost to saving throws is needed in the first round of combats.</blockquote>

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