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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thasmodious" data-source="post: 4583293" data-attributes="member: 63272">I've never encountered this 'grindyness'.  I'm not saying it's not there, but I think its existence has much more to do with how players and DMs are approaching encounters than the system itself.  4e is designed with highly active, cinematic encounters in mind.  Battles on dangerous terrain with certain death a precipice away, deadly traps, hazards, terrain, and plenty of movement.  Yet, many groups approach encounters with the same mindset from 3e or other previous editions - "You open the door, there is a large trol;, roll init and then beat on the troll with pointy sticks and spells until it's dead."  Now, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, at all.  3e was designed around this kind of combat.  4e is not, and that is where the potential to turn combats into grindfests exists.  In 4e, things like the slowed or immobile conditions exist because they are supposed to have a serious impact on the fight.  If most everyone, especially the monster(s) are just standing still, what's the point? That's not the way it's intended.  Locking down one opponent should have a big effect on the combat because the opponents have an interest in moving and positioning, same as the PCs.  The PCs should begin combats looking for terrain advantages and good positioning, not just charging and letting loose with their ranged attacks.  If the PCs aren't using at least 2 of their 3 actions a round, there's a problem.  Part of that "3e mindset" is the learned fear of the AoO.  More hit points in 4e means an OA is much less threatening and creatures and PCs should be much less worried about taking them.  They also trigger less often, do less damage, and are less likely to hit than was usually the case in 3e where letting the greataxe wielding, raging barbarian get an AoO was death.  DMs need to keep the combat moving, keep his mobs moving and encourage the PCs to do the same with interesting environments with rewards for positioning.  The encounter I ran that really drilled this into my players was a semi-random encounter against some orcs that were attacking a traveling merchant.  The group included a couple of raiders, an Eye, some drudges and a Bloodrager.  The bloodrager is a beast and you could really grind just standing toe to toe exchanging damage against him.  The PCs went fairly "standard" the melee guys charged, the ranged guys stopped where they were and started firing.  The star of the encounter was the bloodrager because he didn't just stand still and try to beat down the fighter, he slogged through the battlefield going after everybody.  Anytime the fighter hit him, even with an OA, he got a retaliatory hit, if the fighters OA stopped him moving, he just moved again.  At one point the fighter got cut off by a couple of the drudges and the bloodrager suddenly charged the wizard and nearly took his head off,.  The wizard hasn't just stood around in the open casting spells with no thought to position ever since.  The fight went many rounds, a good chunk of the last against just the bloodrager (thanks to the Eye, he didn't use his warriors surge until he was the only orc left).  Bloodied and beaten the last few rounds were a toe to toe slugfest that the PCs enjoyed with the injured fighter and cleric battering the wounded orc while the ranger chimed in from behind a rock (the wizard was down and dying, as was the warlock).</blockquote>

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