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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8056316" data-attributes="member: 6750235">That cost skill points taken away from skills the other class would typically use elsewhere (not necessarily a class skill either), lost that spamming potential, lost higher level songs, and delayed progression to higher level abilities.Another class needs to match charisma focus and perform as a class skill to do it as well to pull it off as well part time at best.Not an issue. MAD impacted saves keeping up with SAD caster stats against slow progression save bonuses.  Paladins did have good saves but not much else going for them.Bard songs and spell casting and better skill selection was easily better.They lacked skill points for the range of skills, however, and investment in CHA or WIS was not investment in STR.</blockquote>