Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The help action is not broken, but Working together is
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7552451" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>I think most people miss my point. </p><p></p><p>They discuss "is it realistic to hand out advantage". </p><p></p><p>I am pointing out that when a module says you need to make a DC 10 Perception test to find the whatever, that means any Commoner will passively find it, every single time. </p><p></p><p>In other words, it is not hidden at all. </p><p></p><p>Same with making a DC 13 Persuasion check. Okay, so you can't make that test passively, but the point man is likely to have a +7 modifier even at the lowest levels, and the party is likely to have at least a +1d4 bonus from somewhere (such as bless).</p><p></p><p>Just the idea that the group should also be allowed to get advantage on the check is mind-boggling. Why do we even make checks if there is no real risk of failure?</p><p></p><p>In module after module, skill DCs are consistently extremely low, and even without advantage, my players' characters routinely make these checks. </p><p></p><p>Sure you CAN have a group of players that don't understand to distribute the basic "roles" within the party: scout and face are the two biggest. The rules absoultely must accomodate groups that have played D&D before, and immediately create one character of a high-Wisdom class take Perception as a skill (instant +7 modifier even at level 1), and another of a high-Charisma class with Persuasion proficiency.</p><p></p><p>These things are not rocket science. The very idea the game shouldn't be calibrated for basic player skill offends me.</p><p></p><p>Then you get into situations at higher levels where the Bard auto-succeeds at everything involving persuasion, because Inspire dice are just as unbalanced out of combat as is Work Together. And the Rogue automatically detecting and disarming every trap, making you shake your head: why even bother including all that stuff when you give the players the tools to utterly trivialize everything.</p><p></p><p>Let's next look at it from an optimizer's angle. </p><p></p><p>Maxxing out a skill check (saving throw, attack roll) is supposed to be satisfying. But if the game just gives you advantage freely, there is no satisfaction. If you don't have to work for it, there's nothing to be proud of.</p><p></p><p>That is why we've ditched Inspiration, for instance. If you gain advantage from first casting a spell, or tactically positioning yourself, or from teamwork, that's D&D as I recognise it.</p><p></p><p>Gaining advantage just because is, for want of a better word, lame.</p><p></p><p>So, no. No inspiration, no "lemme help" free advantage, and D&D is a better game, since now you actually have to play it.</p><p></p><p>If you want to play the social pillar on easy mode you bring a bard who doesn't waste his Inspire dice in combat (where it is balanced) and instead spend it out of combat (where it is gamewrecking).</p><p></p><p>If you want to play the explore pillar on easy mode you bring a Ranger whose class features says "you can't get lost". A Rogues whose Reliable talent basically wipes traps off the table since no trap ever has a higher DC than what he achieves on automatic.</p><p></p><p>Why even have rules if there's no challenge? Why not then admit you're having a round of storytelling? </p><p></p><p>Tl;dr: instead of faffing about with all these rules, how about throwing it all out and instead say roll a d20:</p><p>1: real failure (of the old-school kind)</p><p>2-9: you succeed "but..."</p><p>10-19: basic success</p><p>20: critical success</p><p></p><p>Unless you do what I tell you to, and dismantle all the easiest paths to bonuses, that is what D&D amounts to nowadays.</p><p></p><p>Now get off my lawn.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7552451, member: 12731"] I think most people miss my point. They discuss "is it realistic to hand out advantage". I am pointing out that when a module says you need to make a DC 10 Perception test to find the whatever, that means any Commoner will passively find it, every single time. In other words, it is not hidden at all. Same with making a DC 13 Persuasion check. Okay, so you can't make that test passively, but the point man is likely to have a +7 modifier even at the lowest levels, and the party is likely to have at least a +1d4 bonus from somewhere (such as bless). Just the idea that the group should also be allowed to get advantage on the check is mind-boggling. Why do we even make checks if there is no real risk of failure? In module after module, skill DCs are consistently extremely low, and even without advantage, my players' characters routinely make these checks. Sure you CAN have a group of players that don't understand to distribute the basic "roles" within the party: scout and face are the two biggest. The rules absoultely must accomodate groups that have played D&D before, and immediately create one character of a high-Wisdom class take Perception as a skill (instant +7 modifier even at level 1), and another of a high-Charisma class with Persuasion proficiency. These things are not rocket science. The very idea the game shouldn't be calibrated for basic player skill offends me. Then you get into situations at higher levels where the Bard auto-succeeds at everything involving persuasion, because Inspire dice are just as unbalanced out of combat as is Work Together. And the Rogue automatically detecting and disarming every trap, making you shake your head: why even bother including all that stuff when you give the players the tools to utterly trivialize everything. Let's next look at it from an optimizer's angle. Maxxing out a skill check (saving throw, attack roll) is supposed to be satisfying. But if the game just gives you advantage freely, there is no satisfaction. If you don't have to work for it, there's nothing to be proud of. That is why we've ditched Inspiration, for instance. If you gain advantage from first casting a spell, or tactically positioning yourself, or from teamwork, that's D&D as I recognise it. Gaining advantage just because is, for want of a better word, lame. So, no. No inspiration, no "lemme help" free advantage, and D&D is a better game, since now you actually have to play it. If you want to play the social pillar on easy mode you bring a bard who doesn't waste his Inspire dice in combat (where it is balanced) and instead spend it out of combat (where it is gamewrecking). If you want to play the explore pillar on easy mode you bring a Ranger whose class features says "you can't get lost". A Rogues whose Reliable talent basically wipes traps off the table since no trap ever has a higher DC than what he achieves on automatic. Why even have rules if there's no challenge? Why not then admit you're having a round of storytelling? Tl;dr: instead of faffing about with all these rules, how about throwing it all out and instead say roll a d20: 1: real failure (of the old-school kind) 2-9: you succeed "but..." 10-19: basic success 20: critical success Unless you do what I tell you to, and dismantle all the easiest paths to bonuses, that is what D&D amounts to nowadays. Now get off my lawn. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
The help action is not broken, but Working together is
Top