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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7552562" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>Wow... where to start... at the end i guess...</p><p></p><p>its my lawn when i play, not yours, not WOTCs.</p><p></p><p>The key to that is that *if* i choose to run a module and *if* i choose to leave a trap in a spot and *if* i choose to leave it at a DC 10 to spot then it is *my* trap now and my choice that it is that easy to spot and guess what... thats fine if thats what i want it to be. Now i should describe, narrate and play it through just so. </p><p></p><p>maybe its a trap left alone and not watched over/maintained and thats why its easily spotted - like say in an abandoned ruin and we now have crap growing up through the gaps between a trapdoor or lots of water stains from rains that show the edges.</p><p></p><p>maybe its actually meant to be easily spotted - cuz we sometimes have our own folks strolling around - but a rug or carpet can be used to hide it better when we have a means to go "on alert".</p><p></p><p>maybe, like perhaps many "traps" would be, its not meant as a passive threat to "challenge" a party on its own but part of a defensive scheme - cutting off or slowing down a group trying to go that route in a hurry. </p><p></p><p>Consider - passive perception checks *require* iirc the character not be doing anything else... so such a trap down a corridor or in an area where the "attackers" might be moving while under fire and while doing stuff means - they can not get a PPer auto. Additionally, if they are running or dashing and so on its perfectly reasonable to provide as Gm "disadvantage" on the "did you spot a trap" check which again takes the DC 10 into a chance of failure.</p><p></p><p>I think what is perhaps the most obvious thing to me about this position is its like it was somehow pre-ordained the possibility that a DC 10 trap is not a challenge is somehow counter to the "way it should be" and that the DC 10 meaning "easy to avoid if not under any sort of pressure" is a flaw instead of an intent representing part of the scene or event.</p><p></p><p><strong>A much simpler alternative perspective is that the DC 10 trap is like a single goblin - its not really a threat on its own and is not gonna be a challenge to the party of first level guys or even a group of four commoners - but it is something that can be a problem if you handle it wrong or the circumstances are right.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p></p><p>In my lawn - i set DC 10 for traps and such when appropriate and narrate it as more nuisance than threat for whatever reason made me give it a 10 in the first place - but more often than not those are really more accurately not "traps" as much as they are "hazards" whether deliberately put in place or not. </p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Regarding the Dc 13 persuasion skill check - that represents a check between "easy" and "medium" difficulty - so its something that is not supposed to be too tough - so its not like "i want you to go kill your own family" right? Thats the key - difficulty needs to match the "task" not some arbitrary notion that every roll needs to be "challenging". You are going off on how this means its mind boggling that the Dc would be this low - but that is without mentioning what it is doing? is it DC 13 to bribe a corrupt and greedy goblin to let you slip into the camp? That seems likely fine to me. or intimidate a cowardly one? again, sounds right to me. </p><p></p><p>Attempting to divorce the "DC" and "odds of success" from "what the task is" and construe it as a problem... and thats like asking "is a tablespoon of salt too much to put in beef stew" when you do not know if its a single serving, a six quart pot or a 10 gallon stew pot for a food line.</p><p></p><p>"Why do we even make checks if there is no real risk of failure?"</p><p></p><p>The game rules say you shouldn't. If you are, then thats a problem with your lawn. </p><p></p><p>You then presume bless and inspire dice and on and on and on... </p><p></p><p>But, at a basic level you have missed one of the most known aspects of RPGs since modules have been around - ort you havent missed it and are deliberately ignoring it because you want to spew rage on how bad this or that is...</p><p></p><p>Since like the first modules ever, it has been acknowledged - usually in the module - that the Gm needs to adjust the module to fit his characters and campaign. one size never fits all. Its the Gms job to assess the module and his game and his crew and see "is this a good fit or is this lawn too mushy for my guys or is it too rough for my guys." They then need to adjust accordingly. Whether that skew is from more/fewer PCs, higher/lower levels, more/fewer magic items, higher/lower ability scores or yes even lower/higher degree of expertise at the gameplay and builds - its on the Gm to own the game and adjust the "fast food" module when necessary.</p><p></p><p>I mean, if your group was six people strong you wouldn't go buy four dinners for them because the module said "buy for four", right?</p><p></p><p>I think, maybe just me, its patently obvious that modules are not built to be specced out for a "degree of difficulty" designed to be "challenging to a top notch minmaxed group." One i can remember to a small degree was Tomb of horros iirc? But its been forever since i looked at that. Modules are built for more casual play level - likely even pick-up games and their degree of difficulty is tuned to that.</p><p></p><p>Just liie most commercailly available meals, if one wants its extra spicy, extra hot - one has to usually add spice themselves cuz its rare that the mainstream stuff is heated to their tastes.</p><p></p><p>Sorry - but - thats because most of the folks who just pick-up a module and run it without checking and tweaking are - likely - at that level of play. </p><p></p><p>If a gm/player wants a hard-core, high-difficulty "hard mode" game geared to high end (or even medium end) optimizers and tacticians - they gotta go on and be/find a Gm who is willing to do the work and put in that effort to tune a session or a module to fit that... which maybe some GMs are not given the apparent fervor some show over the modules not already doing it for them.</p><p></p><p>But, thats my lawn and i am sticking to it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7552562, member: 6919838"] Wow... where to start... at the end i guess... its my lawn when i play, not yours, not WOTCs. The key to that is that *if* i choose to run a module and *if* i choose to leave a trap in a spot and *if* i choose to leave it at a DC 10 to spot then it is *my* trap now and my choice that it is that easy to spot and guess what... thats fine if thats what i want it to be. Now i should describe, narrate and play it through just so. maybe its a trap left alone and not watched over/maintained and thats why its easily spotted - like say in an abandoned ruin and we now have crap growing up through the gaps between a trapdoor or lots of water stains from rains that show the edges. maybe its actually meant to be easily spotted - cuz we sometimes have our own folks strolling around - but a rug or carpet can be used to hide it better when we have a means to go "on alert". maybe, like perhaps many "traps" would be, its not meant as a passive threat to "challenge" a party on its own but part of a defensive scheme - cutting off or slowing down a group trying to go that route in a hurry. Consider - passive perception checks *require* iirc the character not be doing anything else... so such a trap down a corridor or in an area where the "attackers" might be moving while under fire and while doing stuff means - they can not get a PPer auto. Additionally, if they are running or dashing and so on its perfectly reasonable to provide as Gm "disadvantage" on the "did you spot a trap" check which again takes the DC 10 into a chance of failure. I think what is perhaps the most obvious thing to me about this position is its like it was somehow pre-ordained the possibility that a DC 10 trap is not a challenge is somehow counter to the "way it should be" and that the DC 10 meaning "easy to avoid if not under any sort of pressure" is a flaw instead of an intent representing part of the scene or event. [B]A much simpler alternative perspective is that the DC 10 trap is like a single goblin - its not really a threat on its own and is not gonna be a challenge to the party of first level guys or even a group of four commoners - but it is something that can be a problem if you handle it wrong or the circumstances are right. [/B] In my lawn - i set DC 10 for traps and such when appropriate and narrate it as more nuisance than threat for whatever reason made me give it a 10 in the first place - but more often than not those are really more accurately not "traps" as much as they are "hazards" whether deliberately put in place or not. --- Regarding the Dc 13 persuasion skill check - that represents a check between "easy" and "medium" difficulty - so its something that is not supposed to be too tough - so its not like "i want you to go kill your own family" right? Thats the key - difficulty needs to match the "task" not some arbitrary notion that every roll needs to be "challenging". You are going off on how this means its mind boggling that the Dc would be this low - but that is without mentioning what it is doing? is it DC 13 to bribe a corrupt and greedy goblin to let you slip into the camp? That seems likely fine to me. or intimidate a cowardly one? again, sounds right to me. Attempting to divorce the "DC" and "odds of success" from "what the task is" and construe it as a problem... and thats like asking "is a tablespoon of salt too much to put in beef stew" when you do not know if its a single serving, a six quart pot or a 10 gallon stew pot for a food line. "Why do we even make checks if there is no real risk of failure?" The game rules say you shouldn't. If you are, then thats a problem with your lawn. You then presume bless and inspire dice and on and on and on... But, at a basic level you have missed one of the most known aspects of RPGs since modules have been around - ort you havent missed it and are deliberately ignoring it because you want to spew rage on how bad this or that is... Since like the first modules ever, it has been acknowledged - usually in the module - that the Gm needs to adjust the module to fit his characters and campaign. one size never fits all. Its the Gms job to assess the module and his game and his crew and see "is this a good fit or is this lawn too mushy for my guys or is it too rough for my guys." They then need to adjust accordingly. Whether that skew is from more/fewer PCs, higher/lower levels, more/fewer magic items, higher/lower ability scores or yes even lower/higher degree of expertise at the gameplay and builds - its on the Gm to own the game and adjust the "fast food" module when necessary. I mean, if your group was six people strong you wouldn't go buy four dinners for them because the module said "buy for four", right? I think, maybe just me, its patently obvious that modules are not built to be specced out for a "degree of difficulty" designed to be "challenging to a top notch minmaxed group." One i can remember to a small degree was Tomb of horros iirc? But its been forever since i looked at that. Modules are built for more casual play level - likely even pick-up games and their degree of difficulty is tuned to that. Just liie most commercailly available meals, if one wants its extra spicy, extra hot - one has to usually add spice themselves cuz its rare that the mainstream stuff is heated to their tastes. Sorry - but - thats because most of the folks who just pick-up a module and run it without checking and tweaking are - likely - at that level of play. If a gm/player wants a hard-core, high-difficulty "hard mode" game geared to high end (or even medium end) optimizers and tacticians - they gotta go on and be/find a Gm who is willing to do the work and put in that effort to tune a session or a module to fit that... which maybe some GMs are not given the apparent fervor some show over the modules not already doing it for them. But, thats my lawn and i am sticking to it. [/QUOTE]
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