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Message: <blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 1491024" data-attributes="member: 14140"></blockquote>Yes, subjective simply means by choice while arbitrary brings in the by whim or not by judgement or reason qualifiers.I am saying both are subjective.Are you saying one is arbitrary?I find hero guys like to throw around "arbitrary" to mean "anything not done using our math" but before i figure you for one of thoise tell me whay you are wanting to tag with arbitrary?If i, using my reason, experience, and judgement assign a custom spell a spell level in DnD is that what you want to call arbitrary?Where do you want to use arbitrary in this discussion?or was it just a snappy jab you really dont want to get called on to explain?I see every bit as much, if not more, discontent and discussion over point costs on the hero boards now, after its decade long gap between 4e and 5e as i did before.Can you say "damage shield" and with a straigh face tell me hero's math is better because its older?BTW, unless i miss my guess, spell levels have been around longer than HERo math has, so if we apply the "older is more relaible" nons... errr... logic then DnD spell level assignments should be even more better at it than hero, right. They are older.Eureka!!!Yes.both HERO and other game system have significant amounts of influence between "context/setting/genre and the VALUES/costs/levels that elements should be assigned. These influences must be assessed using judgement and reason and with direct assessment of the specific game in question.A good example is water breathing vs +1 to hit (both 5 pts in hero.) Should they be the same cost for a water deep fantasy vs a dark sun desert fantasy? of course not. Should they be the same cost for a Phoenix AZ based superhero game as a NYC based superhero game where an atleantean sub mariner plot will be a main storyline? Of course not.uh huh. and you have not seen people creating unbalanced stuff in HERo i bet?In DND, i dont need an experienced eye to tell me what letter the spell starts with either.Knowing the HERO point value of X does not mean it is easier to balance. It just means i have some number. Is that number useful?Would you, as an experienced hero player, bet money that two characters both built on 300 rp were balanced without seeing them?Would you, as an experienced hero player, bet money on two powers both built on 45 rp being balanced without seeing them?or, in both cases, since you know from experience that rp cost is NOT sufficient as a metric to judge most anything about a power or a character, insist on seeing the powers or characters and comparing a number of factors like ap, construct guidelines, types of limitations, presence of GM permission items etc etc etc before placing your money down?Honest now, which would it be?For instance, lets look at it another way...BRICK 1 (200 rp)Str 60 Dex 20 Con 30 Body 20 Int 10 ego 10 pre 10 com 10PD 12 ED 6 Rec 18 Spd 3 End 60 Stn 60  Armor 10/10 20 pts of non-combat skills+1 OCVBrick 2 (205 rp)Str 60 Dex 20 Con 30 Body 20 Int 10 ego 10 pre 10 com 10PD 12 ED 6 Rec 18 Spd 3 End 60 Stn 60  Armor 10/10 20 pts of non-combat skills+1 OCVExtra limb (prehensile tail with full strength and dex)These two may happen to have turned out to be balanced. 5 pts out of 200 wont be making or breaking any balance and they are built almost identically.but what aboutBrick 3a (either 234 or 189 depending on GM judgement on figured characteristics as outlined in HERO5)Str 60 Dex 20 Con 30 Body 20 Int 10 ego 10 pre 10 com 10PD 12 ED 6 Rec 18 Spd 3 End 60 Stn 60  Armor 10/10 20 pts of non-combat skillsExtra limb (prehensile tail with normal human strength and dex 10)+1 OCVAccording to the numbers, which did in fact require at least one subjective GM decision, the latter guy should be either 10% more or 10% less effective than the other two. This could for instance boil down to a big to hit difference in a 3d6 system. For 34 pts, the most "by the book" costing, i could buy +3 overall levels and gain +3 with any roll i ever make, or double the armor.But in fact, looking at it using judgement, the latter guy should be right around the same cost as the other two. matter of fact, he should sit between the 200 and 205 mark.See, you are EXACTLY right, almost... you can get a number in HERO without making a subjective decision (if you want to pretedn the whole decision of initial costs, which method to build, etc were not subjective ones) or in this case, with only one...but see, that number doesn't necessarily mean its right. You have a number. But is it a good number? is 234 a good number for the brick number 3?Would i be better saying "well thats the points" and telling my guy its 234 as the book says or would I be better off saying "looking at the examples of brick 1 and brick 2, i think brick 3 should be in between... lets go with 202!"?I think the latter.But, yes indeed, after doing the hero math, you have a number... i will grant you that.The math IMX does not provide guidance. it provides more work and what boils down to distraction. The focus becomes on the points and the points work or dont work dependingon the GM's totally subjective decisions, just like in the games where the GMs dont do the math.besides, there is something inherently disengenuous of touting how much HERo helps inexperienced GMS. HERo is a complex toolkit build everything and enforce everything from scratch system which, frankly, i would not wish on an inexperienced GM who i personally had a grudge with. HERO is a toolkit system mostly favored by very experienced GMs who long ago overcame its steep learning curve.[/QUOTE]

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