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Message: <blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 1492907" data-attributes="member: 14140"></blockquote>They are not "more hideen". There is not some secret formula running around that WOTC keeps squirrelled away. Things are effect-defined and comparison-valued and playtested. Its all up front. The closest to formulas and secret inner workings are the spell level benchmarks and what not which are indeed "hidden" in the DMg section on, get this, making custom spells.So, the fantasy hero genre book is the one that starts with the point costs? Not the other genre books? I stopped buying after Star HEro, which means i got the champions one, one of the martial arts ones and star hero. I had indeed hoped for just what you claimed... good in depth info about adjusting the costs and such to meet the genre and game... and it was lacking...I did find out tho, for instance, that the ability to improve your combat CV by up to +2 by spending actions to raise it and only when fighting with certain individuals COSTS (24 pts: combat array) 33% more than just buying the dexterity (18 pts) and reaping the benefits of the Cv and the dex and other things it brings without the need for losing actions or having a specific partner. (This also, printed specifically in the books and confirmed by Long.)This, the vacuum space thingy, etc  did not lend me to think the subsequent genre books would have turned the corner so drastically.I have no problem with restricting it to a genre. Say the champions style avengers campaign. In such a campaign, would you be willing to bet money two 350 pt characters were balanced? I gotta say, this is flumoxing.I have seen numerous posts on the hero boards where someone asks about balancing characters and how to do it and almost to a man everyone when asked about using total points basically said that wont work. Long lists of comparisons of CVs, AP limits, Dexes, stun values, con stun benchmarks, various rules of X etc were given time and time again and no one said... "just go by total real points and odds are you are probably gonna be OK."It appears they all could learn something from you. They are really overcomplicating things if indeed, as you say, total points will handle it.Nope.I am happy with sticking to a single genre. nope.Wow... it just happens? The powers just balances themselves?Sure, thats the party line... the area makes up for it... I dont think so. but then, i do the math...See, whereas you think the powers will balance in an averngers style champions game, i did say that right? I think it might, or it might not.I think it depends on how many of the adversaries are "agent level" guys with really low defenses that come in close clusters... after all a 2" radius AOE is only 3 hexes diameter... about 18' across. But then we run into, of course, the fact that guys packed in that closely can be hit by spreading the EB... against say three guys in that size i can drop my EB to 6d6 and get an attack roll against all three... or i could throw the 4 1/2 d6 Eb. if i assume these villains have defenses half as good as the heroes... say 10 total, then the aoe gets about 7 stun thru per person (not enough to knock them out and not enough to even con stun a normal guy) but the 6d6 is gonna average about 11 thru. Even if you assume i miss with one of the three attack rolls, thats still getting as much damage thru. (and 11 would con stun a "normal" though likely not an agent type.)So, how often would you expect these avengers style PCs to be going against these weaker adversaries where noticeable stun goes thru on 4 1/2 d6 vs how often they will be meeting supers level guys with defenses in the 15-20 range? How often would the DCVs of these weaker bad guys be high enough to make spreading for three to hit rolls doing 6d6 be a worse choice than dropping the 4 1/2 d6 aoe in? Just give me a ballpark range?See, based on the numbers, doing the math, it looks like this super group would need to have MOST of its adversaries in the fights they play against in the weak level defenses of 10 tops , and as many of the "unarmored normal guy" with EDs of 2-5 as they meet of supers with EDs of 15-20 to have these two attacks come off as "balanced". Thats not like any 350 champions level game i have ever seen.Its definitely not an avengers style game.If a player brought me a character for champions with a 9d6 firebolt as his attack power, i would tell him... thats low but serviceable. If thats what you want, it can work, but realize you wont be the heavy hitter." and in most scenarios he would be doing damage.EDIT: For instance, even with campaign attack norms of 10-12d6, if this was his attack power, it would be good enough for him to balance out with say a higher OCV than normal... he does less per hit, but rarely misses and takes difficult shots with ease. He might find it possible to use it to hit small targets like held items and knock them from villains hands. This is a viable attack power even if a little below average DCs and APs for such a game.If he brought me the same guy with the 4 1/2 d6 aoe as his attack power, i would tell him "in this game, that wont work. You will be mostly fighting supers, with some agents now and again, but most of the guys you will be wanting to shoot at will have defenses of 10-20 and that power just wont be useful often enough to warrant that value."What would you tell these two guys? How many times would your avengers guys out of say 10 "combats you play out fully" would go against "guys with def less than 5", guys with defenses less than 10" etc in order to balance these two powers? What circumstances would occur frequently enough to allow the AOE guy to see his AOE as better than the spread EB guys? Do we have hoardes of average joe speedsters every other week?[/QUOTE]

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