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Message: <blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 1495105" data-attributes="member: 14140"></blockquote>Actually didn't you say the hero math did a lot of the work for you, while DND levels only allowed you to do comparison by example?I think it was specifically on for instance magic...honestly, if your position now is that all hero's math gets you to as good as levels at assessing balance... well then i must ask, why did you need to do all that math? buzz, please go back and look at all my analysis... when i did the analysis of 4.5 d6 aoe 2" r fireball and 9d6 firebolt, when i threw average damages, spread to 3 hexes across, viper agents defense from champions, etc etc etc etc and finally came to the conclusion that "the aoe is too weal by comparison" the number "45" played no role.had i stated "9d6 firebolt and 4.5 d6 fireball cost 74 pts" the final analysis and comparison would have been the same. the fact that i did some hero math to arrive at 45 before i compared the powers for EFFEXCT and RESULTSm had no bearing whatsoever on the analysis and conclusion of that analysis for EFFECT and RESULT.When asnwering the question of "what fireball would be equivalent in effect and result to a 9d6 firebolt?" all the hero math did is get me started at the wrong place...4.5 d6.I could have done that without the math up front. eyeballing it, i would have started with 6d6 and a 3" AOE (in HERO speak making AOE radius a +1/2 advantage for normal defense powers.)Analyzing 6d6 3"r vs 9d6 bolt it looks a lot closer balanced with tangible advantages and disadvantages to both. The 9d6 can no longer spread to the full width without doing LESS damage than the area and both will do at least some damage on average to the top end defense supers.I will agree wholeheartedly that the more experienced a Gm is with a system the more easily he will find balance designing for it. I just think its a matter of experience, not the math.mosyt of the hero players who like hero i knopw personally list chargen, building characters, squeaking out points, as the most fun. i have spent many an enjoyable time doing so myself. i like crunching numbers... whether its hero characters, designing classes, building gothic fleets or star fleet battles task forces, etc. give me a complex "build your assault unit" point scheme and i usually will be entertained for a while.and other times, i want to playong or running  rpgs.If i were to make claims that were inaccurate about DND or stargate or any other rpg on a thread asking about that rpg, i would expect someone with kjnowledg to step in and challenge those assertions. i would hope they did so with good knowledge of the system, examples from the system, and so forth.if that happened, i would not bemoan the fact that it happened.the fireball vs firebolt example was chosen to emphasiuze a point... its not just oddball wierd niches of the genre that hero math falls down on. this wasn't super baby powers exploited meson burst pulsars (eb nnd aoe autofire) some savvy guru would whip out to try and pass by a snoozing gm... this was as simple as fireball vs firebolt. if it doesn't get the simple math right, the stuff a novice might try thinking it will be fine, why would we assume it gets the less obvious stuff right.even eosin decided to, instead of just saying "yeah its balanced", discuss how once advntages start getting applied, cost does not relate to power well.The hero math to arrive at cost does not help with the effect & result (enr) that a decent gm will do to determine balance. The enr still needs to be done. people at the hero boards admit this and start talking combat values, average stun, chances to hit just like DND people do who never used the hero math.if the hero math starts you off at a wrong result, like it pointed me to 4.5 d6 instead of 6d6, it doesn't help at all and may even hurt.more importantly, if the hero math gets accepted as sufficient proof of balance, if one actually believes the point value is an accurate measure and thus takes it over ot in place of doing the enr, then it really does hurt you.Someone even a little sane, not using hero math, using just his own experience and judgement, would never say...1. weak tail should be either more expensive than full tail OR less expensive than no tail.2. a smaller base should be MORE expensive than a larger base with everything the smaller base has and more.3. a character who is a billionaire playboy scientist shapeshifter with (several bases and a jet plane) who can also assume the exact form, skills, and powers of each of his 350 pt partners is also a 350 pot character.All thre FRED, you want page numbers, or have i earned enough bonafides now that we dont need to take the time to show the math?I submit that the initial gut reaction to each of those by anyone starting from eyeball would be "no"... but those starting with hero math would be starting with "yes". That math up front took some time and did not help them one bit. Arguably, if they pay heed to ot and try to "prove it was right" as opposed to going with the obvious conclusions... it hurts them.if they are so faithfuol as to not even want to pay attention to the enr or not do it and just accept "its generally right" and move on, it hurts them a lot.emphasis mine.[/QUOTE]

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