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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 4599269" data-attributes="member: 54707">If people wish to debate both sides of the issue, or any side of an issue, then that's good. That's what a debate is for.As for your point, I'm not really sure we're thinking the same thing about the same subject.For instance, mechanically I could care less about the differences in 4E from 1E, except in certain respects of personal preference. (But that's more psychological and personal than factual in nature.) Everything has to have mechanics to operate, even games.As for the so-called Edition Wars I could care less about that either.In my games we use 4E characters for humanoids, elves, dwarves, that kind of thing, hybrid (one's I developed, not base don 4E) character classes for human characters. I like it that way cause this makes humans and non-humans so very different form one another, and since in my setting they live on different worlds, the alien-ness and differences between humans and non-humans works out great. But those differences are not really germane to what makes a Hero.For instance one could easily say that both Frodo Baggins and Aragorn are Heroes, but very different kinds of Heroes, (though very much the same in some respects). But numbers and levels and ranks and classes and races and powers and that kind of thing didn't make them heroes. Neither did titles. Frodo was not a Hero because he carried a +3 short sword named Sting, and Aragorn was not a Hero because he was really the King in exile wielding the sword that was remade. He was heroic long before anyone knew he was a King. Frodo was heroic despite Sting, Sam was certainly terrifically heroic despite having no magic at all. Probably more heroic because he had no magic at all. Frodo bore the ring, but Sam bore Frodo. That kind of thing happens all the time in heroic myth. You don't see it exemplified much in modern games though. Heroism has become artificially "attached or linked" to things that have nothing to do with Heroism, and so mask or camouflage those things that do have to do with real heroism. A Hero is not somebody who has actually done anything heroic, he's somebody in game who has reached a certain level,a tier, or has become high enough in rank to warrant a Paragon path. Mechanically speaking. As for speaking about acts of heroism, who knows or cares. The point is he leveled up. That is the real point of heroism, right?But I personally could care less whether Elves have super-powers, or pluck good bowstrings. Neither one is an avenue to Heroism, they are just tools to use in order to potentially achieve Heroism. Heroism isn't achieved mechanically, but then again it can be deflected or mitigated mechanically. That is one can become lost at sea by watching the waves instead of by reading the compass and following the course that's charted. But the mechanisms aren't really important as long as they are not interfering or diverting attention away from the objective. I liked your observations. Not my exact point, but then mine was just a starting point to thinking about Heroism in games. Hell, heroism in real life for that matter. I didn't say I could not now. I'm saying I don't see it being promoted. I see other, far lesser and less important things being promoted instead.And well said.Always the pragmatist Jas. Always the pragmatist.That made me laugh. I have the album by the way.I wrote a poem for this thread, humor-wise, but I haven't had time to type it up yet.Indeed.Makes no difference to me Vay.It's just words. That was one thing I was saying about Heroism. The difference between words and action.You can't make a Hero by saying, "Hey, I'm writing into the game a progression chart for an Epic Destiny!"Oh, you are, are ya? Can I get free super-powers with that too, or do I have to actually do something worthwhile to earn the honor? There's a difference in life, and even in games, between what we say and what we do. How we act, now that may or may not be heroic, depending on circumstances. What we say, now that may or may not be true, depending on circumstances, but words are never actions.But anyways I took no offense.And wouldn't have even if I had actually read it.Well gents and dolls, I gotta go cut bait.Got an old buddy coming in that I haven't seen since his last tour of duty.And best of all, he's bringing the whole family with him. Haven't seen them in even longer. He's gotta boy in college now. Man, how time flies.Anywho the wife is back with the vittles.Later gators, and please carry on if you wanna.I'm going to go eat and then talk shop awhile.</blockquote>

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