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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 4604028" data-attributes="member: 22779">JRRNeikalot - oh come on.&nbsp; By about 5th level, AD&amp;D characters are more or less invincible in combat.&nbsp; By name level, they truly are.&nbsp; When name level characters are taking on armies of giants, are you seriously going to contend that they are not super-heroic?&nbsp; Name level AD&amp;D characters are taking on GODS.&nbsp; And winning.Note, that even a 1st level fighter in AD&amp;D can have super powers.&nbsp; He get's percentile strength.&nbsp; No other member of a PC race can ever have this.&nbsp; He isn't just stronger than a normal commoner, he's stronger than a normal commoner can ever possibly be.And this isn't super heroic?Please. You can talk about power creep all you like, but, when you start doing comparisons between 1e PC's and 3e PC's and the monsters that they face, suddenly it gets pretty obvious who's more powerful.&nbsp; Look at 1e modules and the number of monsters you face at any given level.&nbsp; If you used those numbers against 3e characters, they would die every time, yet the 1e characters not only don't die, they regularly succeed.&nbsp; Yet, it's the 3e characters that are more powerful?&nbsp; Not by a long shot.&nbsp; 3e made combat FAR more lethal than 1e by ramping the damage of monsters way, way up.&nbsp; 1e troll does 24 points of damage max.&nbsp; 3e troll does over 50.&nbsp; What's the hit point difference of a 5th level 1e vs 3e character?&nbsp; 3e might have more hit points, but he certainly doesn't have double.This whole meme that 3e is the &quot;powergamers edition&quot; is just crap and doesn't stand up to 30 seconds of actual comparison.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 4604028, member: 22779"] JRRNeikalot - oh come on. By about 5th level, AD&D characters are more or less invincible in combat. By name level, they truly are. When name level characters are taking on armies of giants, are you seriously going to contend that they are not super-heroic? Name level AD&D characters are taking on GODS. And winning. Note, that even a 1st level fighter in AD&D can have super powers. He get's percentile strength. No other member of a PC race can ever have this. He isn't just stronger than a normal commoner, he's stronger than a normal commoner can ever possibly be. And this isn't super heroic? Please. You can talk about power creep all you like, but, when you start doing comparisons between 1e PC's and 3e PC's and the monsters that they face, suddenly it gets pretty obvious who's more powerful. Look at 1e modules and the number of monsters you face at any given level. If you used those numbers against 3e characters, they would die every time, yet the 1e characters not only don't die, they regularly succeed. Yet, it's the 3e characters that are more powerful? Not by a long shot. 3e made combat FAR more lethal than 1e by ramping the damage of monsters way, way up. 1e troll does 24 points of damage max. 3e troll does over 50. What's the hit point difference of a 5th level 1e vs 3e character? 3e might have more hit points, but he certainly doesn't have double. This whole meme that 3e is the "powergamers edition" is just crap and doesn't stand up to 30 seconds of actual comparison. [/QUOTE]

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