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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aaron2" data-source="post: 1961581" data-attributes="member: 1436">Assume a rogue is hiding in a bush. Another character failed a spot check. In the bush, bits of the rogue are exposed (otherwise he'd have total concealment). Those bits are visually detectable, the spotting character sees those bits, he just doesn't realize the bits are part of a hiding rogue. The hiding rogue can be seen, he just hasn't been yet. This is totally different from an invisible character where no bits are showing (since they are see-through bits). In other words, there in an unblocked line of sight between the two characters. You cannot make the case that the line of sight is blocked since the spotting character can see the rogue even if neither of the two characters moves just make making a Spot check.Your quote from page 76 is right before the comment about being in a crowd "without being noticed". Its also right before the statement that "Total cover or total concealment obviates the need fro a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." Thus, you only need to make a Hide check when someone can see you. I find the logic that hiding -> unseen -> invisible is just too much of a stretch. The term "unseen" is only used in the SRD as a short-cut to refer to invisible creatures or creatures treated as if they were invisible due to darkness or a blinded opponent. Answer this question then. If hidden character are invisible, why do invisible characters get a bonus to Hide checks? Aaron</blockquote>

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