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<blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3372157" data-attributes="member: 20239">IMO that's a strawman.&nbsp; The problem with powergaming isn't the effect is has on non-gamist aspects of the game, it the effect is has on gamist aspects of the game when everyone else doesn't want to engage in powergaming on the same level.&nbsp; A powergaming player in a group means that the DM has to become a powergamer to some extent by default, just to keep challenging the player.&nbsp; Players can feel the same burden to &quot;keep up&quot; or feel useless and left out.&nbsp; By providing a rules framework that allows a wide range of &quot;powergame-ability&quot; the D&amp;D rules exacerbate problems in some groups that might be irrelevant with a different set of rules.&nbsp; If you say the problem lies with the individual player, not the rules, you are essentially saying that powergaming isn't a problem if all powergamers decide NOT to be powergamers.... a circular argument.&nbsp; Players should be responsible for their own actions to the extent that they should play by the game rules and by the golden rule.&nbsp; But powergaming doesn't violate either of those codes.&nbsp; It's a legitimate playstyle choice that causes problems in some situations.&nbsp; There is nothing inherently wrong, immature or rude about powergaming.D&amp;D doesn't have to be all things to all people in order to be a good game. It's not &quot;bull cocky&quot; for some people to point out a design element in the game (i.e. a wide range of character effectiveness dependant upon how much effort a player invests in min/maxing his character) and say &quot;I don't like that.&nbsp; It doesn't work for me and my group.&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ourph, post: 3372157, member: 20239"] IMO that's a strawman. The problem with powergaming isn't the effect is has on non-gamist aspects of the game, it the effect is has on gamist aspects of the game when everyone else doesn't want to engage in powergaming on the same level. A powergaming player in a group means that the DM has to become a powergamer to some extent by default, just to keep challenging the player. Players can feel the same burden to "keep up" or feel useless and left out. By providing a rules framework that allows a wide range of "powergame-ability" the D&D rules exacerbate problems in some groups that might be irrelevant with a different set of rules. If you say the problem lies with the individual player, not the rules, you are essentially saying that powergaming isn't a problem if all powergamers decide NOT to be powergamers.... a circular argument. Players should be responsible for their own actions to the extent that they should play by the game rules and by the golden rule. But powergaming doesn't violate either of those codes. It's a legitimate playstyle choice that causes problems in some situations. There is nothing inherently wrong, immature or rude about powergaming. D&D doesn't have to be all things to all people in order to be a good game. It's not "bull cocky" for some people to point out a design element in the game (i.e. a wide range of character effectiveness dependant upon how much effort a player invests in min/maxing his character) and say "I don't like that. It doesn't work for me and my group.". [/QUOTE]

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