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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 8056257" data-attributes="member: 2629">This has been proven false in so many threads it is ridiculous - with math to back it up.  Dismissing the math as irrelevant because you consider it 'unrealistic' (in your subjective lens) is not proving anything.  We don't need to relitigate this every few months.  However, a good exercise to study this situation is to build an efficient 5th level rogue, and an efficient 5th level monk.  The monk attacks 3 times, the rogue only twice, but gets to deal sneak attack damage once per round (assuming they hit at least once) and can use a main weapon and an off hand weapon.  No magic items will be used, but a +1 bonus to the damage of the rogue main hand to balance out the simple DPR.Now, have them cut down targets.  These targets will have (2d4-1)d20 hps (a range of 1d20 to 7d20, with a tendency towards 4d20), and ACs of 8+2d6 (10 to 20 with a tendency towards 15).  To limit the influence of random chance, you'll have them each tackle the same targets in the same order (so if you roll a 46 hp target with an AC of 16, both will use their attacks to kill it and then will move on to the second one you roll so that their second one is also identical, even if they get to it at different rounds).  You'll also record your d20 rolls and apply them to the attack rolls in the same order so that the first 6 d20 roll will cover 3 rounds for the rogue (who has main hand and off hand) and only 2 rounds for the monk (who has multi-attack and martial arts).I've run this experiment.  For 3000 targets.  The monk killed 3000 targets in 9886 rounds.  The rogue took 15,224 rds to kill the same number of targets.  The monk was attacking three times - twice at d8+4, and once at d6+4 for basic DPR of 24.5.  The rogue was attacking for d8+5 (an extra plus one to balance out the DPR), d6, and 3d6 sneak.  24.5 for the rogue. Same DPR - massively different kill rates because of the overkill factor - even when we allowed a wide range of hps.  However, I did not calculate DPR to include the criticals, which actually favors the rogue as they get to roll more additional dice on a crit.  Run the experiment.  You'll see that lost efficiency due to overkill is a huge factor in balance.</blockquote>

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