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Message: <blockquote data-quote="xechnao" data-source="post: 4680069" data-attributes="member: 58105">I will give it a try.The specific example is the gaming (gamist?) challenge they have put as the basis of 4e. In MMO games are about two distinct things. An arcade part (which is the technical skill of hand-eye coordination) and tactical part (which is the knowledge of the secrets of the game and their mastery: being able to remeber them). You have to be successful in both but usually there is some space to compensate for non optimum performance in one if you perform perfectly in the other and still achieve an optimum overall result.In tabletop rpgs there is no way for the arcade part to be transplanted -unless we start tossing darts to a target instead of throwing dice- but certainly there is a way to transplant the tactical part. And this is what 4e did. It made its way in transplanting the tactical design of MMOs. And lets assume for the sake of the discussion that it did a fine job, so fine that we could call what 4e achieved in this aspect a work of art.Even in 3e there were tactics to master. Now lets assume for the sake of this discussion that they did not reach the artistic status of 4e's design on this matter. But 3e was not build with only this in mind. It was rather build with the possibility of giving the tools for running a world or setting through the various possibilities that one may have. So in 3e there was a possibility to toss out the deep tactical choices and buy more ways or possibilities of interaction with the setting-world and still be able to achieve optimum results but from a different approach -one of breadth. The problem with 3e now is that it lacked a basis to guide you on tracking how these things work together* -and it was solely left on the dungeon master. I agree that this is not enough. In practice it is extremely weak for the tremendously heavy logistics of 3e -and generally of D&D. This begs another question: why D&D builds so heavy logistics. Well this is a commercial thing and a design thing: it helps add content and drive sales. Would it be better a different approach? IMO yes, but this is a different matter entirely. *as for example in MMO the arcade mode works together with the tactics modeNow lets take a step back and return to 4e. As I said above what 4e did is create a perfect structure of tactics regarding depth. BUT one should have to pay notice in this endeavour to not choke space for another quality to supplement it with- this quality should most preferably be the one tabletop rpgs have: the options of the verbal input we can have. Of course this is something neither 3e has built upon. I am not talking about making voices here -that should be something arcade (karaoke anyone?). I am talking about expressing choices that we can understand how they reflect personal or social relationships. Because the medium is personal and social on tabletop rpgs. To build a mechanic structure that can respect and run this well it must not be chocked by (incompatibility with) another mechanism that needs to be respected -one such as the balance structure of 4e's tactics.</blockquote>

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