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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8922368" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think an interesting question about BitD (which I don't play, and know only by reputation) and also Torchbearer (which I do play, and like a lot) is whether - or, perhaps, under what conditions - they really are parasitic in [USER=6690965]@Pedantic[/USER]'s sense.[USER=70468]@kenada[/USER] posted an actual play counterexample of his BitD experience.In my TB game, which is now (I think, from memory) 9 sessions in, the PCs still struggle to maintain adequate inventories, and one still has as his goal to {i]get shoes[/i]. But the PCs are also progressing in their skills and abilities, and two will get to 3rd level in the next Town Phase and the other two should get to 2nd level.In Torchbearer there is no upside to not taking actions - there is literally no game play in the absence of declared actions (even going shopping is a Resources check) - and once actions are taken, the dice will be rolled (unless the GM counts it as a good idea, but then as well as the dice not being rolled, it doesn't earn a test towards advancement).The skill of play is balancing risk/reward judgements about how far to push in a multi-dimensionally-constrained decision-making space (conditions accruing on a Moldvay Basic-like &quot;turns&quot; basis; light sources running out; food and water running out; needing those empty backpack slots to carry your loot; needing enough loot to pay for accommodation to rest to recover from your conditions; etc); while also aiming at your PC's dramatic/thematic stuff (because that's what earns the Fate and Persona points that both (i) make mechanical success possible, and (ii) play the role of D&amp;D XP in level progression).While acknowledging that the details of BitD are quite different, I'm going to guess that at a certain level of abstraction the decision-making space is comparable.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8922368, member: 42582"] I think an interesting question about BitD (which I don't play, and know only by reputation) and also Torchbearer (which I do play, and like a lot) is whether - or, perhaps, [i]under what conditions[/i] - they really are [i]parasitic[/i] in [USER=6690965]@Pedantic[/USER]'s sense. [USER=70468]@kenada[/USER] posted an actual play counterexample of his BitD experience. In my TB game, which is now (I think, from memory) 9 sessions in, the PCs still struggle to maintain adequate inventories, and one still has as his goal to {i]get shoes[/i]. But the PCs are also progressing in their skills and abilities, and two will get to 3rd level in the next Town Phase and the other two should get to 2nd level. In Torchbearer there is no upside to not taking actions - there is literally no game play in the absence of declared actions (even going shopping is a Resources check) - and once actions are taken, the dice will be rolled (unless the GM counts it as a good idea, but then as well as the dice not being rolled, it doesn't earn a test towards advancement). The skill of play is balancing risk/reward judgements about how far to push in a multi-dimensionally-constrained decision-making space (conditions accruing on a Moldvay Basic-like "turns" basis; light sources running out; food and water running out; needing those empty backpack slots to carry your loot; needing enough loot to pay for accommodation to rest to recover from your conditions; etc); while also aiming at your PC's dramatic/thematic stuff (because that's what earns the Fate and Persona points that both (i) make mechanical success possible, and (ii) play the role of D&D XP in level progression). While acknowledging that the details of BitD are quite different, I'm going to guess that at a certain level of abstraction the decision-making space is comparable. [/QUOTE]

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