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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
The Indispensable 4e
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<blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5894538" data-attributes="member: 1544"><p>Some points to add:</p><p>* removal of stat-boost spells and items</p><p>* shifted buffs and debuffs to the totals, not to the source numbers. i.e. +1 to hit, not +2 strength</p><p></p><p>There are lots of points made that I want to query or counterpoint, but in the interest of not de-railing the thread, I'll stick to the less inflamatory ones:</p><p></p><p><strong>Non-rolled HP, or at least some system to get HP w/o rolling.</strong></p><p>This was an optional rule in 3.0 if I recall correctly. I don't remember anyone ever even giving it a chance, let alone making it the standard for their game. I think the difference comes from the values chosen. In 3.0 you halved the dice roll. Most players aren't satisfied with gaining 4 HP when they know they have a 50% chance of gaining more than 4 HP by rolling. In 4E, it appears to be more like 'half the old dice roll +1'. Hence clerics get 5 instead of 4.</p><p></p><p><strong>Action economy move/minor/standard/free</strong></p><p>We keep forgetting to mention that you can 'trade down' through the actions. That's an important part of why it works so well.</p><p></p><p><strong>Dynamic fights - fighters aren't stuck due to using full round attacks</strong></p><p>I wonder why no-one has done this in 3E. If it's that bad, surely allowing fighters to do their full attack action as a standard action would help to solve the linear fighter/quadratic wizard problem.</p><p></p><p><strong>Team based play - all classes are important, not just 2</strong></p><p>This is often overlooked and is a very good point. I just wanted to highlight it.</p><p></p><p>Finally; I couldn't possibly agree MORE with Crazy Jerome regarding the fact that some mechanics are improved without being perfect. Something being 'better in 4E' doesn't necessarily mean that 4E's version is the best. In some cases, we might need to go 'beyond 4E' and create something new. In other cases it might be a requirement to merge 4E's idea with an earlier idea to create a new improved version.</p><p></p><p>For example:</p><p><strong>No Condition Tracking</strong></p><p>4E did NOT get rid of condition tracking. If anything, it increased it. Especially at low levels. What it did do is replace long term durations with a greater prevalence of conditions overall.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zustiur, post: 5894538, member: 1544"] Some points to add: * removal of stat-boost spells and items * shifted buffs and debuffs to the totals, not to the source numbers. i.e. +1 to hit, not +2 strength There are lots of points made that I want to query or counterpoint, but in the interest of not de-railing the thread, I'll stick to the less inflamatory ones: [b]Non-rolled HP, or at least some system to get HP w/o rolling.[/b] This was an optional rule in 3.0 if I recall correctly. I don't remember anyone ever even giving it a chance, let alone making it the standard for their game. I think the difference comes from the values chosen. In 3.0 you halved the dice roll. Most players aren't satisfied with gaining 4 HP when they know they have a 50% chance of gaining more than 4 HP by rolling. In 4E, it appears to be more like 'half the old dice roll +1'. Hence clerics get 5 instead of 4. [b]Action economy move/minor/standard/free[/b] We keep forgetting to mention that you can 'trade down' through the actions. That's an important part of why it works so well. [B]Dynamic fights - fighters aren't stuck due to using full round attacks[/b] I wonder why no-one has done this in 3E. If it's that bad, surely allowing fighters to do their full attack action as a standard action would help to solve the linear fighter/quadratic wizard problem. [b]Team based play - all classes are important, not just 2[/b] This is often overlooked and is a very good point. I just wanted to highlight it. Finally; I couldn't possibly agree MORE with Crazy Jerome regarding the fact that some mechanics are improved without being perfect. Something being 'better in 4E' doesn't necessarily mean that 4E's version is the best. In some cases, we might need to go 'beyond 4E' and create something new. In other cases it might be a requirement to merge 4E's idea with an earlier idea to create a new improved version. For example: [b]No Condition Tracking[/b] 4E did NOT get rid of condition tracking. If anything, it increased it. Especially at low levels. What it did do is replace long term durations with a greater prevalence of conditions overall. [/QUOTE]
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