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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7875269" data-attributes="member: 42582">The whole notion of the PCs underaking, and succeeding or failing at "the job", assumes the PCs are essentially mercenaries or treasure hunters. This is one way to play a RPG - Gygax gives excellent advice for it in his PHB, under the heading Successful Adventures - but obviously is not the only one.I don't see any reason to think this is true. Maybe the campaign ends when the PCs fail! That would depend on a lot of details of any particular campaign.And even if the campaign continues, maybe that PC never recovers from that particular failure.The fact that the campaing may continue with something or other at stake doesn't show (i) that there are not stakes if the PCs aren't threatened with death, nor (ii) that the final outcome of every undertaking is known. Which are the two claims I was responding to.Prince Valiant isn't a splatbook. It's a RPG designed in the late 80s by Greg Stafford. In my view it's Stafford's best RPG, though his own opinion was that Pendragon is his masterpiece. Regardless of whether or not it's Stafford's best, it's widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest RPGs ever designed.The Prince Valiant comic plays little role in the RPG other than providing (i) lots of art and (ii) the basic setting (romantic Athurian Britain). I mention the game in this thread because it contradicts your claim that, if death is not at stake, then final outcomes are known. As I posted earlier, even in my D&D play experience the main stakes have not been whether or not the PCs live. For instance, in my 4e game the main concern of the PCs has been with various cosmological concerns (eg the fate of the Rod of Seven Parts; the possible onset of the Dusk War) and some of the PCs have also been concerned with ensuring the wellbeing of the mortal world.EDIT for the sake of clarity:I have no objection to D&D played as a wargame. It's an important part of D&D tradition. My objection is to claims that (for instance) nothing can be at stake if PC death is not at stake made as general claims about D&D play and RPGing. Because that sort of general claim is obviously false.Perhaps Hoard of the Dragon Queen is not a good scenario for wargaming D&Ders. I don't know, having never played it, but maybe the use of the dragon in the opening scene isn't a good fit for that style. But that would not, in itself, show that it's a bad module.</blockquote>

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