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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6732525" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think it's clear in the alignment section of Gygax's AD&D that law and chaos aren't independent values. They have only instrumental value. The LG value law and order because they think it is a means to universal welfare. The CG reject social structure and embrace freedom and individualism because they think that only the latter can lead to universal wellbeing.The LE, NE and CE all pursue their own ends without regard to the wellbeing of others, but again they have different social theories. The LE think that the best way to impose their will is via some sort of collective structure. The CE think the best way to impose their will is through pursuing individual whim without any regard to cooperation or group effort. The NE are intermediate between these two.I think other elements of AD&D, and even moreso post-Gygaxian D&D - and especially Planescape - have tried to make law and chaos into values of their own.Here is a practical example to try to illustrate the difference: in the framework of the AD&D alignment sections, the LG person has as deep a disagreement with the LE person as with the CE person, perhaps even moreso, because they disagree radically over whether social structures are a source of welfare or just a yoke upon others.Whereas once you hold law up as a distinct value, then the LG and LE person have some value in common. That's the thing that I think is incoherent.</blockquote>

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