Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6733446" data-attributes="member: 6790260">1: I don't see how that isn't a description of a value. From Dictionary.com: "value, 11: Ethics. any object or quality desirable as a means or as an end in itself." "X will secure desirable Y" sounds like a perfectly cromulent description of a value that is a means to something.2: How does this address the "I am a man of my word, so I will keep my promise even though it leads to ends I don't like" criticism? Because that shows up an awful lot in stories with "Lawful Evil" characters.3: Your argument is circular. "The LE person cares for nothing but his/her own self-interest, thus the LE person cares for nothing but his/her own self-interest." You have yet to show that that is actually the meaning of Evil. Personally, I would think it is much more cogently defined as "places one's own interests categorically before the interests of others." Doesn't mean you can't be interested in others' welfare, just that they're never more important than you are.4: What about those who see Law as an end in and of itself, something to be pursued because organization is inherently valuable...and who pursue it with ruthlessness and malice? Consider someone like Inspector Javert, except that you add that he finds delicious, exultant joy in inflicting pain and misery on those deemed guilty by the Law. Is that not a coherent example? Sure, the real Javert goes mad because he's actually got a nascent tendency for Good which believes Law is always the correct path--but what if he did not have that tendency, and actually enjoyed the suffering caused by his pursuit of "justice"? The entire "Javert goes mad" thing disappears and the end is him dragging an old and dying man to prison, even though he owes that man his life, because he cares nothing for "morality" and only for seeing laws enforced (and enjoys punishing others for breaking them).</blockquote>

Verification