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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6667530" data-attributes="member: 996">The same number that it's been pointed out that feats are optional, that everyone has one or two Feats (or one ASI, if feats aren't used), already, before you get that 1st bonus ASI at 6th, so it's at best your 2nd-string choice, and only gets less significant from there, and that most games don't even hit the 14th level for that second ASI. When they're used.  When they're not, it's an extra ASI, and, sure, a +1 better mod in some tertiary stat...  Any +1 is nice to have under bounded accuracy, even in if it's only for two levels, and thereafter in some secondary or tertiary stat.  It's just not nearly as nice as a +6. Two additional choices, by 14th, from a list /everyone/ gets to choose from.  And they need to cover both combat & non-combat.  The 3.x fighter had a real feat advantage in feats - more bonus feats than other classes got feats, in total.  It could match every non-combat feat another character might take, while still exceeding the combat feats another character might take.  That was a real advantage.  It didn't drag the fighter out of Tier 5 by itself, but it was at least meaningful as far as it went.  Two bonus ASI's over 14 levels just isn't as meaningful.  But, really, why are you even bringing up those two ASIs in response to the following:   which acknowledges those two ASIs, anyway.  What does the Champion get besides two ASIs & RA?  Why, /those same two ASIs!/   Wow.   Can't argue with that.   That would be objectively false, since the EK also casts spells and the Battlemaster also layers on riders from maneuvers.  Of course, I only said it about the Champion, of whom it is true ("prettymuch") - even if it's not a strong claim, it's not an objectively false one.   Speculation about the 5e fighter's legacy - without certain knowledge of future events, it's just speculation.  With certain knowledge of future events, why waste your time on the boards, go buy some lottery tickets....  Maybe that speculation about the fighter's legacy (the point of the thread, BTW) will prove false in 5 or 10 years, maybe it won't.  Until then, it's not objectively false.  I don't know about 'great' - you could set the bar pretty high if you really wanted to - but /something/ meaningful, I suppose the 33 sub-classes with casting or other supernatural abilities, plus the Thief & Assassin, thanks to Expertise.  Not so sure about the Berserker.  That's it?  That's pretty limited.  Still beats 'Remarkable' Athlete, of course, but pretty unimpressive just the same.   Expertise, alone, helps you stand out.  Eventually, you'll be making checks others just can't - unless someone else, like a Bard (who's also a full caster and has other goodies), has Expertise in the same skill, anyway. More than double the feats of other classes would come close.  In 3.x, 11 bonus feats on top of the 7 everyone got let the fighter devote up to those full 7 feats to matching what anyone else could do out of combat with feats, while still exceeding what anyone else could do in-combat with feats.  If the fighter just got a feat at 1st and another at each even level, for instance, he'd be more than doubling the baseline, and really could do things with feats that no one else could (quite) match.   If they were bonus /feats/ (accessible whether feats are available to other classes or not), rather than ASI, so much the moreso.  (It'd still be debatable what that advantage might amount to - in 3.x, it still amounted to Tier 4-5.)  Mechanically, at least, most RPGs are.  There aren't really any 5e classes that suck out loud in combat, are there?  Not to the point that anyone playing them might just as well leave the room when initiative is rolled, at least?Though that's not at odds with my personal experience, I don't think it's a fair thing to assume.  Rather, it's worth noting that 5e is nominally balanced around that 5-8 or 6-8 or whatever it says in the encounter guidelines, challenges per 'day' (actually, between long rests - the DM can certainly deny or grant opportunities for long rests to mess with what constitutes a day).  That's a constraint on the DM, yes, but if he conforms to it, balance issues should be reduced.  There are other ways for the DM to impose balance, as well, regardless of how well the classes shake out under analysis.</blockquote>

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