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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6667589" data-attributes="member: 996">Not the question I asked.  There is a little more to combat, even in 5e, than DPR - even if it's just multiplying the next guy's crazy DPR.  There aren't really any 5e classes that suck out loud in combat, are there?  Not to the point that anyone playing them might just as well leave the room when initiative is rolled, at least?  I don't see how 3 action surges don't run out in 6-8 combats. Generally has been:  one way 5e continues to capture the feel of the classic game.  That reliability got him a Tier 5 rating & years of 'SUX' threads in 3.x, and called "the weak cousin of D&D" on the back of an early 2e supplement, though.  Ol' reliable traditionally meant the fighter sucked when the chips are down and everyone's bringing their A game, and shines when it's not important enough to anyone else to expend resources - or when the party is in the last stages of a grinding TPK.  It takes a certain mindset to feel good about that kind of niche.   You really can't blame a game that gives you guidelines for what happens when you color outside them.  You can blame a game for having somewhat inflexible guidelines with potentially serious consequences of deviating from them, when it spent two hears of very active public playtesting supposedly trying to accommodate many more 'styles' of play, though.  In the end, 5e accommodates one style of play: the Empowered DM style.  Fortunately, you can do whatever you want with that style.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" /> I was sure it was 6-8... I mostly followed the rest of your analysis, but it left me wondering:  if you strip away all the offensive limited-use resources - spells, action surge, etc - how do those melee types stack up?  Are they really doing the same base-line damage, or is the fighter's 6th level ASI and/or any MAD on the others' side, or any other factors having an impact?  And, then, what about monkeywrenches like a magic sword dishing out +2d6 extra damage very hit?Doesn't most of the theoretical difference get lost in the noise of the d20 and various situational factors?</blockquote>

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