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<blockquote data-quote="Minigiant" data-source="post: 8745713" data-attributes="member: 63508">One thing I think D&amp;D has really struggled with is:Trading Damage for Effects.The warrior could with their attack:<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Deal damage</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Shove</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Grapple</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Disarm (optional)</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Battle Master Maneuver without weapon and bonus superiority damage (DM adjudication)<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Command</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Distract</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Goad</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Feint</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Lunge</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Menace</li>
</ol></li>
</ol>The issue is only damage is cumulative. 3 hits for damage deals 50 damage puts a 2255 HP adult blue dragon&nbsp; closer to death or surrender. 3 Shoves or a Grapple &amp; 2 Disarms does not. A martial's effects don't get better.A caster as they get high level get better effects.<ol>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Divinations see more</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Their Conjurations summon stronger allies and teleport them better</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Enchantments affect more of the mind</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ol">Their Evocations deal more damage</li>
</ol>etc etcSo what if Martials could get a stronger Shove or Disarm or Goad or Lunge? What is a 20th level Shove? What is a 11th level Disarm?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Minigiant, post: 8745713, member: 63508"] One thing I think D&D has really struggled with is: Trading Damage for Effects. The warrior could with their attack: [LIST=1] [*]Deal damage [*]Shove [*]Grapple [*]Disarm (optional) [*]Battle Master Maneuver without weapon and bonus superiority damage (DM adjudication) [LIST=1] [*]Command [*]Distract [*]Goad [*]Feint [*]Lunge [*]Menace [/LIST] [/LIST] The issue is only damage is cumulative. 3 hits for damage deals 50 damage puts a 2255 HP adult blue dragon closer to death or surrender. 3 Shoves or a Grapple & 2 Disarms does not. A martial's effects don't get better. A caster as they get high level get better effects. [LIST=1] [*]The Divinations see more [*]Their Conjurations summon stronger allies and teleport them better [*]The Enchantments affect more of the mind [*]Their Evocations deal more damage [/LIST] etc etc So what if Martials could get a stronger Shove or Disarm or Goad or Lunge? [B]What is a 20th level Shove? What is a 11th level Disarm?[/B] [/QUOTE]

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