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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8746692" data-attributes="member: 4937">You go into a long list of things that you claim prove me wrong that I feel are terribly tangential.&nbsp; But of course I can't prove that.&nbsp; D&amp;D has never set out to try to explain how a universe with magic, four elements, dryads, nymphs, giant spiders and 20th level fighters actually works, mostly I imagine because the designers don't know and to a lesser extent don't care.How you think that proves me wrong I have no idea.&nbsp; Science fiction and even more science fantasy has a marked tendency to ignore physics in favor of story tropes and simple easy to imagine things and treat technology as magic.&nbsp; Explain FTL drives and lightsabers without recourse to magic.You're so much wanting to have your cake and eat it to here.Prove that.&nbsp; Where is your long and concrete experience with curses and evil spirits to suggest that they aren't transmitted by rats and don't incubate.&nbsp; This is a world where we have dryads, nymphs, water elementals, and pixies and you think you can assert that evil spirits don't incubate?&nbsp; Prove that they don't.I'm saying that in the D&amp;D universe magic is physics, and that in the D&amp;D universe magic is mundane and mundane things have their own magic.&nbsp; I'm saying that from within the D&amp;D universe a fire elemental isn't any more magical than a rat, and that a dryad isn't any more supernatural than a cat.&nbsp; The distinction drawn between the two is a product of external bias because one also exists in some form in this universe and in your experience and the other doesn't.&nbsp; I'm saying you are using &quot;magic&quot; and &quot;supernatural&quot; to mean &quot;things that don't exist in the real world&quot;, but that that is a meaningless distinction within the D&amp;D universe where &quot;magic&quot; probably means something closer to &quot;products of mortal technology&quot; as opposed to the &quot;mundane everyday sort of magic&quot; (to quote Tolkien) of being stealthy or a bubbling brook or a green growing field.In the D&amp;D universe, fighters already train physically and perform acts that are beyond any real world human achievement and all real world human limits.&nbsp; You just seem OK with them when they are feats of combat, and not OK with them when they are anything else.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8746692, member: 4937"] You go into a long list of things that you claim prove me wrong that I feel are terribly tangential. But of course I can't prove that. D&D has never set out to try to explain how a universe with magic, four elements, dryads, nymphs, giant spiders and 20th level fighters actually works, mostly I imagine because the designers don't know and to a lesser extent don't care. How you think that proves me wrong I have no idea. Science fiction and even more science fantasy has a marked tendency to ignore physics in favor of story tropes and simple easy to imagine things and treat technology as magic. Explain FTL drives and lightsabers without recourse to magic. You're so much wanting to have your cake and eat it to here. Prove that. Where is your long and concrete experience with curses and evil spirits to suggest that they aren't transmitted by rats and don't incubate. This is a world where we have dryads, nymphs, water elementals, and pixies and you think you can assert that evil spirits don't incubate? Prove that they don't. I'm saying that in the D&D universe magic is physics, and that in the D&D universe magic is mundane and mundane things have their own magic. I'm saying that from within the D&D universe a fire elemental isn't any more magical than a rat, and that a dryad isn't any more supernatural than a cat. The distinction drawn between the two is a product of external bias because one also exists in some form in this universe and in your experience and the other doesn't. I'm saying you are using "magic" and "supernatural" to mean "things that don't exist in the real world", but that that is a meaningless distinction within the D&D universe where "magic" probably means something closer to "products of mortal technology" as opposed to the "mundane everyday sort of magic" (to quote Tolkien) of being stealthy or a bubbling brook or a green growing field. In the D&D universe, fighters already train physically and perform acts that are beyond any real world human achievement and all real world human limits. You just seem OK with them when they are feats of combat, and not OK with them when they are anything else. [/QUOTE]

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