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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8746821" data-attributes="member: 4937">I feel like the anti-magic field example is in fact above the level of &quot;personal opinion on how things work in D&amp;D&quot; and very much on the level of &quot;any D&amp;D book&quot;.&nbsp; If you aren't conceding that, then I'm not sure what evidence I could provide.But since I'm feeling like explaining myself, lets return to the larger point.Both of us surely concede that there is a level at which a D&amp;D fighter can take on a 40 ton fire breathing lizard whose &quot;teeth are like swords, armor is like ten-fold shields, wings are hurricane, it's tail a thunderbolt, and it's breath death&quot; using only a sharped bit of metal, and by virtue of the fighter's reflexes, hardiness, strength, and fight intuition come out the victor.&nbsp; Further, I think you'll have to agree that that degree of reflexes, hardiness, strength, and skill with a sword is pretty much impossible if we mean a real world human bound to the laws of physics as we know it.&nbsp; Beating a tiger with a sword is one thing (mundane skill), but it's near enough impossible to beat an angry elephant in melee combat, and a dragon is beyond the bounds of credulity.&nbsp; But of course, if we accept the dragon as real, then we are accepting along with that the hero whose skill in combat exceeds any of ordinary experience as well (the real meaning of mundane, by the way).&nbsp; But to the inhabitants of the D&amp;D universe, both the fire breathing dragon and the hero that defeats are mundane, even though neither could exist in this world.&nbsp; Real world dragons couldn't fly.&nbsp; Real world heroes couldn't move fast enough with enough precision and enough strength to kill a dragon.&nbsp; If we accept both of those things with respect to combat, why is it hard to accept that the heroes above real world human capabilities in combat might also translate to above real world human capabilities outside of combat.&nbsp; I'm not saying that on the scale we are talking about we are talking about lifting the sky on your back, or drinking the ocean down, or what have you.&nbsp; I'm just saying somewhere above what we would expect real humans to do, but somewhat less than what the gods of stories do.&nbsp; If a real person can jump a meter shy of what a kangaroo can, why can't a guy that can kill a dragon without &quot;magic&quot; jump a meter more than a kangaroo can?&nbsp; If a real person can run at like 28mph, why can't a guy that can kill a dragon in melee combat run at 30mph without claiming that is &quot;magic&quot;?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8746821, member: 4937"] I feel like the anti-magic field example is in fact above the level of "personal opinion on how things work in D&D" and very much on the level of "any D&D book". If you aren't conceding that, then I'm not sure what evidence I could provide. But since I'm feeling like explaining myself, lets return to the larger point. Both of us surely concede that there is a level at which a D&D fighter can take on a 40 ton fire breathing lizard whose "teeth are like swords, armor is like ten-fold shields, wings are hurricane, it's tail a thunderbolt, and it's breath death" using only a sharped bit of metal, and by virtue of the fighter's reflexes, hardiness, strength, and fight intuition come out the victor. Further, I think you'll have to agree that that degree of reflexes, hardiness, strength, and skill with a sword is pretty much impossible if we mean a real world human bound to the laws of physics as we know it. Beating a tiger with a sword is one thing (mundane skill), but it's near enough impossible to beat an angry elephant in melee combat, and a dragon is beyond the bounds of credulity. But of course, if we accept the dragon as real, then we are accepting along with that the hero whose skill in combat exceeds any of ordinary experience as well (the real meaning of mundane, by the way). But to the inhabitants of the D&D universe, both the fire breathing dragon and the hero that defeats are mundane, even though neither could exist in this world. Real world dragons couldn't fly. Real world heroes couldn't move fast enough with enough precision and enough strength to kill a dragon. If we accept both of those things with respect to combat, why is it hard to accept that the heroes above real world human capabilities in combat might also translate to above real world human capabilities outside of combat. I'm not saying that on the scale we are talking about we are talking about lifting the sky on your back, or drinking the ocean down, or what have you. I'm just saying somewhere above what we would expect real humans to do, but somewhat less than what the gods of stories do. If a real person can jump a meter shy of what a kangaroo can, why can't a guy that can kill a dragon without "magic" jump a meter more than a kangaroo can? If a real person can run at like 28mph, why can't a guy that can kill a dragon in melee combat run at 30mph without claiming that is "magic"? [/QUOTE]

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