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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 3325416" data-attributes="member: 38324">They were called devils in A Paladin in Hell and Guide to Hell, too. The first use of the word "demon" after WotC bought the company was in Tales From the Infinite Staircase, and the word was used frequently in Return of the Eight shortly thereafter.The changes in the 3e Manual of the Planes were as follows:1. Fierana's name was changed to Fierna [p. 119]2. The Hag Countess' personal name was dropped. Where previously (in A Paladin in Hell, page 28) she had been identified as a devil, the MotP specifically says she is not a devil, but a "supremely powerful night hag from Hades." This wasn't previously the case.3. The business with Mephistopheles' phony coup was first introduced in the MotP [p. 122]. Before (in A Guide to Hell), Molikroth was merely an alias of his, not a disguise.4. Mephistopheles' skin tone was changed from blue-black to red, and he was first introduced with flame rather than frost in the 3e MotP [p. 122].I think these were quite substantial, changing the Hag Countess' species, Fierana's name, and Mephistopheles' schtick.In the Book of Vile Darkness, Dispater is reimagined as a metal-themed devil (an attribute he didn't possess before, at least not so literally). Mammon is reimagined as a greed-themed devil (which makes sense, given his name, but wasn't part of his character in Planescape, Guide to Hell, or the Manual of the Planes. In Planescape his primary themes were his tricky way with words and power over disease; in Guide to Hell his chief attributes were his untrustworthiness and love of the hunt.Fierna is demoted in the Book of Vile Darkness; Guide to Hell and the Manual of the Planes had both made it clear that she and her father were co-rulers, while Book of Vile Darkness says "Fierna has no interest in ruling, gaining power, or taking part of the complicated politics of hell. Instead, she is much more interested in taking advantage of her position and wealth to live an existance of comfort and pleasure. Thus, she is not at all resentful that her father actually does all the "work" and she simply says what he wants her to." [p. 152] Compare that to Guide to Hell: "It seems that Fierana is nothing but Belial's mouthpiece. According to the rumors current among the baatezu nobility, Lady Fierana takes little hand in the governance of her lands... As is common in Hell, this is a lie perpetuated by Fierana herself. Like her father, she is a cunning politician. She has found that these r umors lead other devils to underestimate her, and this has proved useful time and again. While she does indeed spend much of her time in pools of magma, she does so in the company of her father, and the two use this time to discuss politics and strategies." What could be more different? Book of Vile Darkness says Fierna is a no-nothing ditz, while Guide to Hell says she's a clever mistress of misdirection. I would agree that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles are likely the first ones in their respective layers. I think the others could have easily come much, much later, after countless replacements and new recruits. This is the view found in On Hallowed Ground (page 51):"It's no dark that the current lords aren't the same ones who came to mortal knowledge long ago. The noble baatezu serving below the original lords learned the politics of their masters well and eventually overthrew the domineering berks. No doubt they were overthrown by their servants in turn. Fact is, this probably happened dozens of times over the eons."Some of the story behind Beherit's fall is revealed in Elminster of Hell, although Beherit is called "Lucifer" there, his consort is still Batna and the basic story is still the same as it was in Dragon #91. Beherit and Batna decided to copulate and produce a child without the permission of Asmodeus as part of their scheme to overthrow him. Asmodeus was ten steps ahead of him and had him, Batna, and their son Lucifuge destroyed (by devouring them publically). Nergal and Baalzebul both desired rulership of Beherit's former layer, but the layer was awarded to Baalzebul. Nergal was exiled to Avernus in disgrace.From Dragon #91, we know that Gargauth was Beherit's ally, and left the Hells shortly after that (possibly, it's hinted, after a failed attempt at overthrowing Asmodeus himself - though he seems to bear Asmodeus no ill will, and respects him the most of the remaining devils). What Gargauth's former position was is not revealed, though Dragon #28 said he (as Astaroth) was Hell's Treasurer. Since Dragon #28 isn't considered canon, though, it's possible he once ruled one of the nine layers. Perhaps he ruled the seventh before Triel?The time lapse between the Reckoning and the present day is important. A Paladin in Hell says it was "many, many, many years later." [page 28]A Paladin in Hell says the end of the Reckoning marked the ascension of the Dark Eight (originally the Dark Nine). [page 28] They were the nine generals of the armies of the nine layers, and they turned on the rebellious archdevils at a critical moment. Guide to Hell says "...their founder, Cantrum, was slain ages ago, the remaining members of the Dark Eight have remained the same as long as anyone can remember." Faces of Evil: The Fiends says that the pit fiend Cantrum recruited the other pit fiends when he saw the necessity of further order in the ranks of the baatezu, although debate continues as to whether it was originally Cantrum's idea or if he was told to do this by the Lords of the Nine. A Paladin in Hell's origin story implies the idea was Asmodeus', and the nine pit fiends were initially a secret order and only revealed themselves to the archdevils who thought they were their masters during the Reckoning.Hellbound: The Blood War says the Dark Eight acted in person to deal with the Rebellion of the Inferiors, a minor rebellion of lesser devils that turned out to be orchestrated by balor infiltrators. This event is the only one mentioned between the first discovery that mortal souls could be promoted into new fiendish shapes [The Dark of the War, page 14] and the opening of Ghoresh Chasm [The Dark of the War, page 15], a timespan that doubtless spans eons. Nonetheless, we can deduce that it happened either after or during the Reckoning.Hellbound also says that the Dark Eight "have ruled their race for millennia" [The Dark of the War, page 18], so we know it's been at least that long since the Reckoning.Dragon #223, page 14, says the warlord Bel imprisoned his predecessor "thousands of years ago." I think the latter is more likely.Misinformation on Zariel's part. The same reason Belial hides behind his daughter. Your idea that it was Asmodeus' idea, because of his better relationship with Tiamat, is a good one.I'd take Tome of Magic and Fiendish Codex II at their word that Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair so that he would produce that much more energy when the Overlord killed him. He used that energy to empower Glasya to the status of full archdevil. That version isn't quite as exciting as yours, unfortunately.My own elaborate, heretical theory was that Mammon found out about the Reckoning before it happened (being tipped off by one of the Dark Nine) and captured Geryon, disguising himself as him and blowing the horn to signal the Dark Nine's betrayal. Asmodeus predicted he would do this and did nothing to stop him, but he punished Mammon for his duplicity by cursing him with a mockery of Geryon's shape. He punished Geryon for being stupid enough to get captured by Mammon by removing him from power. And this is why Mammon's former allies no longer trust him [as described in the 3e Manual of the Planes).But officially, I don't think there's anything to it other than what the two recent hardcovers say.</blockquote>

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