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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 3328317" data-attributes="member: 11697">As an archon originally, Baalzebul would have to have originated after the formation of life on the prime material and the migration of mortal souls into the outer planes, so we've got a limit on how old he could possibly be. The same limit applies to Bel, because having risen from the ranks of the orthodox Baatezu, he would have started out as a lemure and worked his way up from there. Again we know he can't be older than the advent of mortal life (unlike some beings who existed prior to that point).FC:II presents a myth that would have some of the oldest of the Baatezu prior to their "fall" to Baator being potentially Aasimon of early deities of Law (which might make Baalzebul as old as any of them), or more likely once you strip the myth down to some core truth unburdened by latterday twists and additions, the first Baatezu might have started as servants of earlier beings of a primordial LN plane before (or at the cusp of when) the cardinal alignments began to sully and mix, forming the intervening planes.We know that the Baatezu weren't the first denezins of Baator, and were preceeded by the Ancient Baatorians, and the timeline here as far as it will be relevant to the Baatezu entry into Baator, depends on if the formation of the Ancient Baatorians required the use of larvae or not. The Obyriths who were spawned at the same time and by the same beings, we know that they existed prior to larvae/mortal life, and so we might assume the same for the Ancient Baatorians now as well. Were it the other way around, this would put a limit on the age of the first Baatezu as well.Baator certainly existed prior to the arrival of the Baatezu, and FC:II openly admits this, though it doesn't get into the history of the plane before the Baatezu (no good conquerer of a plane would need to go into the details previous to their reign).Baator and the Abyss are the same age, roughly speaking. If we assume that the Abyss formed at the point of (or shortly before) the Obyrith migration and colonization of that plane then the Ancient Baatorians would have migrated during the same epoch into an earlier version of Baator, or the plane might have formed around them as a consequence of their exodus. The arrival of the Baatezu some time afterwards wouldn't have formed the plane, but it would have impacted the structure and metaphysical composition of it.</blockquote>

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