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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rob Kuntz" data-source="post: 8248510" data-attributes="member: 7015759">This is what I know, and what I have derived from this thread (so far):1)  That early published DCs put combat first for various reasons including through the timed constraints of the RPGA tourney (the latter being aimed at relaying the "correct" interpretation and use of TSR's standardized AD&D rules as well as forming a company sponsored player-contact apparatus).  There was a heavy emphasis by TSR on "redefinition" going on as they went from open rulings in OD&D to standardized rules in later editions, thus there was a need to re-forward what had been changed.2)  Into this mix were thrown various products such as TOEE that had a main dungeon complex but with an area, a ruined keep and a well defined village with interactions going on amongst the various powers centered upon this area.  This, though delayed in publication for too long, is probably the best example of integrating the "world" to-from the Dungeon and making everything specific and tangible for various play functions. Playtested as far back as 1977, it was published in 1985, way too late, IME, to provide a solid example of how RPG play, according to its author Gary Gygax, had been evolving in our Lake Geneva group (for the concept he penned and playtested in 1977 is a mirror reflection of what I posted above, re Greyhawk Sewers and Catacombs).3)  That at sometime during all of the above, as [USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER] noted, that the idea of KILL as the main concept manifested despite #2, above.4)  That this is a skewed perspective driven by lowest common denominator DMs and players who are not representative of a majority of RPGers; and in fact are not even representative of OD&Ders who do not publish their creations but engage them for personal uses only.  This is a big point IMO that I posted above and has gone unresponded to, to my surprise, which keeps the convo as presented locked into examples of the published variety only. This route, IMO, will never reveal the overall truth in the matter and must therefore default to what we know from what has been published BUT not from what has been PLAYED.5)  That there is need of a re-forwarding of the dimensional aspects of DCs to refute the skewed views that it now labors under.  I would start with something akin to a TOEE construct as a base and drive it home as an example of how to integrate into such areas what players and DMs feel is needed.  Show don't tell.</blockquote>

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