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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9330131" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>The official artwork for the DnD Ape always presents a gorilla. Not Chimps, not orangutans. Additionally, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that they clearly meant ape in the scientific sense, and therefore the strength includes gibbons, while also claiming that the designers clearly didn't know how strong these creatures are, since they didn't include a special feature for their strength. </p><p></p><p>Also, we aren't counting the Giant Ape, but the Giant Ape is CLEARLY meant to represent King Kong and Mighty Joe and other... giant apes (ei gorillas). By your logic it must also be the average of the classic giant oranguntans? Or the Giant Chimpanzees? </p><p></p><p>I have a simpler explanation. They meant gorillas, they intended gorillas have a strength of 16. Meaning your human fighter at level 1, has the same strength as a gorilla. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The 10th... what? Because there is another factor you haven't considered. Speed. The Mississipi does have the highest discharge rate, but the current averages 1.2 mph. That is a walking speed. A current that needs to be resisted, sure, but not nearly a death sentence, like white water rapids can be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the entire mile? And filling the entire 30 ft depth of the river? It looks... to not have a bunch of stuff clogging every foot of the river, in any picture I've seen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You think swimming in the Mississippi is clearly a DC 20 task? Well... let's examine that. </p><p></p><p>According to the rules, a DC 20 is a check that requires proficiency (ie training) and higher than average scores to accomplish. DMG pg 238, if you are curious. So, is swimming in the Mississippi something that can only be done by trained athletes above the normal strength of average people? </p><p></p><p> [MEDIA=youtube]vy956Frh4-k[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>Absolutely not. Not a single person in that news story hesitated to say that they would absolutely swim in the River. One person even equated it to swimming in a lake (lakes, famous for their powerful currents) </p><p></p><p>Now, you might argue: "But those people weren't trying to swim the full mile across!" Yeah... but the DC 20 is for swimming in the river at all, not for swimming the distance. </p><p></p><p>You might also argue that these people aren't in full armor... but the armor isn't changing the DC, the armor is changing the speed the character is swimming. </p><p></p><p>So, no matter how you slice it... DC 20 is wrong. DC 15 might even be extreme, since according to someone who actually swam in the Mississippi it is equivalent to swimming in a lake, not a death sentence like you are making it out to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Moving goalposts? Not at all. You standard DnD party moving at a normal pace, hikes 24 miles in a day. Right there in the rules. You... are familiar with how fast a party moves overland right? </p><p></p><p>Also, I love how you immediately went "well, this is why we have variant rules". My post has been about the fact that the base rules allow 1st level human fighters to achieve things beyond human strength and endurance, and you immediately try and move to a harsher, variant rule... because the baseline is too forgiving. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... because the rule depicts something, let's say <em>fantastical</em>, then the solution is.... ignore it because fantasy humans clearly cannot do what the rules say they do? </p><p></p><p>I find it incredibly frustrating the number of times I've been told by the same people demanding that we cannot give abilities to fighters that are greater than human (at least without explicitly saying "this is magic") that the rules depicting some greater than human feat don't count, because that would be silly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, so... what's the point of this all then? </p><p></p><p>See, I think this is the issue. Plausibility. </p><p></p><p>You seem to be approaching from "Is this plausible for a human" </p><p>My approach is far more rooted in "is this plausible for someone with this level of capability". This is why the level 1 strength of a gorilla is important. Or noticing that the strongest vampires are strength 18. Because while it may not be plausible for someone to rip a steel door from stone and use it as a shield... A vampire with "super strength" would be able to do it. So someone as strong or stronger should be capable of doing it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9330131, member: 6801228"] The official artwork for the DnD Ape always presents a gorilla. Not Chimps, not orangutans. Additionally, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim that they clearly meant ape in the scientific sense, and therefore the strength includes gibbons, while also claiming that the designers clearly didn't know how strong these creatures are, since they didn't include a special feature for their strength. Also, we aren't counting the Giant Ape, but the Giant Ape is CLEARLY meant to represent King Kong and Mighty Joe and other... giant apes (ei gorillas). By your logic it must also be the average of the classic giant oranguntans? Or the Giant Chimpanzees? I have a simpler explanation. They meant gorillas, they intended gorillas have a strength of 16. Meaning your human fighter at level 1, has the same strength as a gorilla. The 10th... what? Because there is another factor you haven't considered. Speed. The Mississipi does have the highest discharge rate, but the current averages 1.2 mph. That is a walking speed. A current that needs to be resisted, sure, but not nearly a death sentence, like white water rapids can be. For the entire mile? And filling the entire 30 ft depth of the river? It looks... to not have a bunch of stuff clogging every foot of the river, in any picture I've seen. You think swimming in the Mississippi is clearly a DC 20 task? Well... let's examine that. According to the rules, a DC 20 is a check that requires proficiency (ie training) and higher than average scores to accomplish. DMG pg 238, if you are curious. So, is swimming in the Mississippi something that can only be done by trained athletes above the normal strength of average people? [MEDIA=youtube]vy956Frh4-k[/MEDIA] Absolutely not. Not a single person in that news story hesitated to say that they would absolutely swim in the River. One person even equated it to swimming in a lake (lakes, famous for their powerful currents) Now, you might argue: "But those people weren't trying to swim the full mile across!" Yeah... but the DC 20 is for swimming in the river at all, not for swimming the distance. You might also argue that these people aren't in full armor... but the armor isn't changing the DC, the armor is changing the speed the character is swimming. So, no matter how you slice it... DC 20 is wrong. DC 15 might even be extreme, since according to someone who actually swam in the Mississippi it is equivalent to swimming in a lake, not a death sentence like you are making it out to be. Moving goalposts? Not at all. You standard DnD party moving at a normal pace, hikes 24 miles in a day. Right there in the rules. You... are familiar with how fast a party moves overland right? Also, I love how you immediately went "well, this is why we have variant rules". My post has been about the fact that the base rules allow 1st level human fighters to achieve things beyond human strength and endurance, and you immediately try and move to a harsher, variant rule... because the baseline is too forgiving. So... because the rule depicts something, let's say [I]fantastical[/I], then the solution is.... ignore it because fantasy humans clearly cannot do what the rules say they do? I find it incredibly frustrating the number of times I've been told by the same people demanding that we cannot give abilities to fighters that are greater than human (at least without explicitly saying "this is magic") that the rules depicting some greater than human feat don't count, because that would be silly. Okay, so... what's the point of this all then? See, I think this is the issue. Plausibility. You seem to be approaching from "Is this plausible for a human" My approach is far more rooted in "is this plausible for someone with this level of capability". This is why the level 1 strength of a gorilla is important. Or noticing that the strongest vampires are strength 18. Because while it may not be plausible for someone to rip a steel door from stone and use it as a shield... A vampire with "super strength" would be able to do it. So someone as strong or stronger should be capable of doing it. [/QUOTE]
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