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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9334428" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Okay, back to trying to respond to this SINGLE post</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just because they don't feel comfortable with low con, does not mean they do not try to be good at "other things". Additionally, think about what Actor <em>does</em> before you start casting shade on people who don't take it. Actor is only good for pretending to be someone else or mimicking a voice. And when I have had those people, they often are playing Changelings, or Warlocks with MAsk of Many Faces, or they take Eldritch Adept to get Mask of Many Faces. They don't play fighters who take Actor, and who also need disguise kit proficiency.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A few assumptions here. </p><p></p><p>1) You seem to assume that a high level party will face only CR 15 or above creatures, and they will all be in the same fight. Also, the first 10? So... adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon... The immune to fear was likely the Death Giant Shrouded one. So, what? You expect a party in a normal game is going to have multiple encounters that contain multiple adult dragons of different types teaming up with an elite death giant? </p><p></p><p>2) While yes, higher level spells are often stronger, that doesn't mean low-level spells are weak. Web is an example I bring up fairly often, it is a low level spell, and not an IMMEDIATE fight ender, so will the DM use a legendary resistance on it? But, if you fail the dex save, then it takes an action to break out. And if you are trying to make distance, this can translate into two turns of the enemy being unable to hit the party, while granting advantage to the parties attacks. And the fighter.... can't replicate this, unless they take the web spell. The only fighter who even has an ability to restrain an enemy AT ALL is the Rune Knight, and it is a save at end of turn and fire damage. </p><p></p><p>3) It depends on what you mean by High Damage. I was running an NPC warlock for a group, and they were in dire straits. The hag they were fighting was hitting them with a powerful cursed item that was about to cause major problems for the party. I needed, in the spirit of the character, to end the fight as effectively as possible with damage. So, I looked, and on average her highest damage option was.... Magic Missile. Due to the nature of the auto-hit, and the way dice average out, Magic Missile is reliable good damage in a pinch, especially for single targets. It is also force damage, which is never resisted. You mentioned Psychic Lance, if I am fairly certain the enemy is going to make the save (maybe they did before) then Psychic Lance is an average of 12 damage and no incapacitation. A 2nd level magic missile is 14 damage. A 4th level is 21 damage, and psychic lance at full strength is an average of 24.5. Psychic Lance is stronger, and with an INT save it is really reliable, but if I'm sure it isn't going to work... then Magic Missile will. </p><p></p><p>4) You seem to consistently not talk about cantrips, which is weird. 3d8 (13.5) damage is quite solid. It is almost as good as having extra attack and a +3 mod (not three attacks, two attacks).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am glad you find joy. I would not be happy to realize that my entire character is a footnote in another character's abilities. In fact, I have often been annoyed by that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You realize this entire line of thinking led to healbot clerics, right? </p><p></p><p>But more importantly, you keep missing the point. Your fighter was good as the face because <em>no one else wanted to be the face</em>. And, while yes, it is a team game, if you consistently make it so that only spellcasters can reach the heights of certain pillars... then you are going to consistently see spellcasters taking over. And then someone who doesn't want to play a spellcaster is either going to be forced to change their concept, or be a less effective team member. </p><p></p><p>I'm facing something like this right now. I made a Beast Barbarian with a focus on stealth and hunting... and another player came to the table with a Gloomstalker Ranger/Rogue. I wanted to be more than just the big, strong tough guy, but I'm completely overshadowed in anything dealing with stealth and tracking. I can't turn invisible in darkness after all. I'm still having fun, because I've played with this group for years, but I specifically agreed to help the DM sell their world as one where people hate and fear magic by playing someone with religious convictions against using magic, and the rest of the party is magical and quickly out-stripping me on every front except taking damage. Turning to magic would ruin the character concept to a degree (I can make it work with it being clerical, if I need to) but we ALSO just got a paladin. The magic of the other classes is forcing me into smaller and smaller niches, because it can cover so many things that I just am not allowed access to until I take spellcasting in some form. It is very frustrating.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rangers and Paladins. The half-casters with access to spellcasting? Like how the spell Pass Without a Trace negates stealth builds, like... rogues? Or Dex Fighters who want to be sneaky? </p><p></p><p>Also, Fey Wanderer can match someone with Expertise, but it doesn't nullify all the OTHER things a face character can do (as long as that face is using magic) And maxing Wisdom while getting a 16 Charisma.... doesn't leave a lot of room for Dex, and being a martial character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And you restate the problem, again.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>None of this makes them any less optional. Martials need to work WITH and WITHOUT feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Shocking that you had to focus on spells and be worse at combat. It is almost like spells dominate everything. Which is weird, because I said "But if they want to contribute without spells..."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why would you ever want this?! This sounds horrendous. Are you just trying to kill off any concept that doesn't cast spells?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9334428, member: 6801228"] Okay, back to trying to respond to this SINGLE post Just because they don't feel comfortable with low con, does not mean they do not try to be good at "other things". Additionally, think about what Actor [I]does[/I] before you start casting shade on people who don't take it. Actor is only good for pretending to be someone else or mimicking a voice. And when I have had those people, they often are playing Changelings, or Warlocks with MAsk of Many Faces, or they take Eldritch Adept to get Mask of Many Faces. They don't play fighters who take Actor, and who also need disguise kit proficiency. A few assumptions here. 1) You seem to assume that a high level party will face only CR 15 or above creatures, and they will all be in the same fight. Also, the first 10? So... adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon, adult dragon... The immune to fear was likely the Death Giant Shrouded one. So, what? You expect a party in a normal game is going to have multiple encounters that contain multiple adult dragons of different types teaming up with an elite death giant? 2) While yes, higher level spells are often stronger, that doesn't mean low-level spells are weak. Web is an example I bring up fairly often, it is a low level spell, and not an IMMEDIATE fight ender, so will the DM use a legendary resistance on it? But, if you fail the dex save, then it takes an action to break out. And if you are trying to make distance, this can translate into two turns of the enemy being unable to hit the party, while granting advantage to the parties attacks. And the fighter.... can't replicate this, unless they take the web spell. The only fighter who even has an ability to restrain an enemy AT ALL is the Rune Knight, and it is a save at end of turn and fire damage. 3) It depends on what you mean by High Damage. I was running an NPC warlock for a group, and they were in dire straits. The hag they were fighting was hitting them with a powerful cursed item that was about to cause major problems for the party. I needed, in the spirit of the character, to end the fight as effectively as possible with damage. So, I looked, and on average her highest damage option was.... Magic Missile. Due to the nature of the auto-hit, and the way dice average out, Magic Missile is reliable good damage in a pinch, especially for single targets. It is also force damage, which is never resisted. You mentioned Psychic Lance, if I am fairly certain the enemy is going to make the save (maybe they did before) then Psychic Lance is an average of 12 damage and no incapacitation. A 2nd level magic missile is 14 damage. A 4th level is 21 damage, and psychic lance at full strength is an average of 24.5. Psychic Lance is stronger, and with an INT save it is really reliable, but if I'm sure it isn't going to work... then Magic Missile will. 4) You seem to consistently not talk about cantrips, which is weird. 3d8 (13.5) damage is quite solid. It is almost as good as having extra attack and a +3 mod (not three attacks, two attacks). I am glad you find joy. I would not be happy to realize that my entire character is a footnote in another character's abilities. In fact, I have often been annoyed by that. You realize this entire line of thinking led to healbot clerics, right? But more importantly, you keep missing the point. Your fighter was good as the face because [I]no one else wanted to be the face[/I]. And, while yes, it is a team game, if you consistently make it so that only spellcasters can reach the heights of certain pillars... then you are going to consistently see spellcasters taking over. And then someone who doesn't want to play a spellcaster is either going to be forced to change their concept, or be a less effective team member. I'm facing something like this right now. I made a Beast Barbarian with a focus on stealth and hunting... and another player came to the table with a Gloomstalker Ranger/Rogue. I wanted to be more than just the big, strong tough guy, but I'm completely overshadowed in anything dealing with stealth and tracking. I can't turn invisible in darkness after all. I'm still having fun, because I've played with this group for years, but I specifically agreed to help the DM sell their world as one where people hate and fear magic by playing someone with religious convictions against using magic, and the rest of the party is magical and quickly out-stripping me on every front except taking damage. Turning to magic would ruin the character concept to a degree (I can make it work with it being clerical, if I need to) but we ALSO just got a paladin. The magic of the other classes is forcing me into smaller and smaller niches, because it can cover so many things that I just am not allowed access to until I take spellcasting in some form. It is very frustrating. Rangers and Paladins. The half-casters with access to spellcasting? Like how the spell Pass Without a Trace negates stealth builds, like... rogues? Or Dex Fighters who want to be sneaky? Also, Fey Wanderer can match someone with Expertise, but it doesn't nullify all the OTHER things a face character can do (as long as that face is using magic) And maxing Wisdom while getting a 16 Charisma.... doesn't leave a lot of room for Dex, and being a martial character. And you restate the problem, again. None of this makes them any less optional. Martials need to work WITH and WITHOUT feats. Shocking that you had to focus on spells and be worse at combat. It is almost like spells dominate everything. Which is weird, because I said "But if they want to contribute without spells..." Why would you ever want this?! This sounds horrendous. Are you just trying to kill off any concept that doesn't cast spells? [/QUOTE]
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