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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9334804" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>If it is just one locked door you have severely gimped your Wizard. Even if it is zero you have gimped her by having her prepare Knock.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If your familiar can sneak in and get a key then most Rogues can sneak in anfd get a key. There is no familiar option that is going to come close to a Rogue with expertise in Stealth. Even at 1st level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So what? Any character can do this with a couple feats.</p><p></p><p>By the way how is your Cleric or Druid getting Booming Blade since you did not consider feats because they are optional?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Barbarian is probably the weakest class overall in terms of number of levels where they are weakest, but even they are playable all the way to level 20 with a 16 Strength.</p><p></p><p>When you get above level 10 they are going to start falling behind Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers pretty quickly though, quick enough I would say you are usually not good at combat without other help.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is not needed. I played fighters to level 20 with a 16 attack stat. I rarely get a strength ASI at all, when I do get it it comes on a half feat typically (Heavy Armor Master most commonly).</p><p></p><p>Fighters get more attacks and most of them have fighting styles or subclass options to make their attacks even better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I did nto ignore it. I didn't mention Rogues at all. They are fine I think and relatively easy to make good at all 3 pillars.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Compared to other classes they are not "good" at these levels. Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Warlocks all have better combat spell options and the first 3 have much better AC and are much better at supporting concentration (especially the Sorc). Druids have roughly equivalent spell options with a better AC and Wild Shape. All the other classes are dealing more damage</p><p></p><p>There are 3 main problems with the Bard at these levels - bad Cantrips, weak AC and mediocre spell options. There is a 4th smaller problem in that they get less spells than Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics because they can not recharge slots like those classes can.</p><p></p><p>A 15AC is not high enough to support spells like Hold Person or Heat Metal for very long and neither of these are the equivalent of Web or Spike Growth, being far more situational. Your Cleric is going to have Hold Person which works against humanoids and he is going to have Spiritual Weapon that Works against everything else. Your Wizard is going to have Hold Person and Web, your Druid Heat Metal for BBEG in armor and Spike Growth for everything else.</p><p></p><p>Hypnotic Pattern should not end a fight against intelligent enemies unless the DM plays on easy mode. It should be one lost action per failed save and if you cast heat metal or hold person every enemy is going to target you and your 15AC is going to come down. Round 1 you cast HP on 10 orcs and 9 fail their save, by round 3 ALL 10m of them should be fighting you again and if they are not the DM is being nice. You have to get every single enemy in the AOE and have all of them fail the save to end an encounter with this .... even then you better be able to either leave them or kill them in one round.</p><p></p><p>I do agree Dissonant Whispers is awesome, and Faerie Fire and bless are really good but they do not upcast well and this is why the Bard falls off quite a bit at level 3 compared to others. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He is not going to be dealing good damage, he is going to be doing worse than other casters at control and at healing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>YES. You claimed fighters could not do impossible things. They can.</p><p></p><p>Also why they can't smash rocks? I think they can. A rock is an object, so it has hit points and draining hit points by smashing things is supposedly the only thing people here seem to think a fighter can do well.</p><p></p><p>They can't jump over tall buildings because you can only jump as far as your move.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is fundamentally right. It is right when I play a caster and it is right when I play a non-caster. IMO it is one big reason this edition is so fun.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9334804, member: 7030563"] If it is just one locked door you have severely gimped your Wizard. Even if it is zero you have gimped her by having her prepare Knock. If your familiar can sneak in and get a key then most Rogues can sneak in anfd get a key. There is no familiar option that is going to come close to a Rogue with expertise in Stealth. Even at 1st level. So what? Any character can do this with a couple feats. By the way how is your Cleric or Druid getting Booming Blade since you did not consider feats because they are optional? Barbarian is probably the weakest class overall in terms of number of levels where they are weakest, but even they are playable all the way to level 20 with a 16 Strength. When you get above level 10 they are going to start falling behind Monks, Fighters, Paladins and Rangers pretty quickly though, quick enough I would say you are usually not good at combat without other help. It is not needed. I played fighters to level 20 with a 16 attack stat. I rarely get a strength ASI at all, when I do get it it comes on a half feat typically (Heavy Armor Master most commonly). Fighters get more attacks and most of them have fighting styles or subclass options to make their attacks even better. I did nto ignore it. I didn't mention Rogues at all. They are fine I think and relatively easy to make good at all 3 pillars. Compared to other classes they are not "good" at these levels. Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics and Warlocks all have better combat spell options and the first 3 have much better AC and are much better at supporting concentration (especially the Sorc). Druids have roughly equivalent spell options with a better AC and Wild Shape. All the other classes are dealing more damage There are 3 main problems with the Bard at these levels - bad Cantrips, weak AC and mediocre spell options. There is a 4th smaller problem in that they get less spells than Wizards, Sorcerers and Clerics because they can not recharge slots like those classes can. A 15AC is not high enough to support spells like Hold Person or Heat Metal for very long and neither of these are the equivalent of Web or Spike Growth, being far more situational. Your Cleric is going to have Hold Person which works against humanoids and he is going to have Spiritual Weapon that Works against everything else. Your Wizard is going to have Hold Person and Web, your Druid Heat Metal for BBEG in armor and Spike Growth for everything else. Hypnotic Pattern should not end a fight against intelligent enemies unless the DM plays on easy mode. It should be one lost action per failed save and if you cast heat metal or hold person every enemy is going to target you and your 15AC is going to come down. Round 1 you cast HP on 10 orcs and 9 fail their save, by round 3 ALL 10m of them should be fighting you again and if they are not the DM is being nice. You have to get every single enemy in the AOE and have all of them fail the save to end an encounter with this .... even then you better be able to either leave them or kill them in one round. I do agree Dissonant Whispers is awesome, and Faerie Fire and bless are really good but they do not upcast well and this is why the Bard falls off quite a bit at level 3 compared to others. He is not going to be dealing good damage, he is going to be doing worse than other casters at control and at healing. YES. You claimed fighters could not do impossible things. They can. Also why they can't smash rocks? I think they can. A rock is an object, so it has hit points and draining hit points by smashing things is supposedly the only thing people here seem to think a fighter can do well. They can't jump over tall buildings because you can only jump as far as your move. It is fundamentally right. It is right when I play a caster and it is right when I play a non-caster. IMO it is one big reason this edition is so fun. [/QUOTE]
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